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116,662 hits 3.6 (5 votes) Share Favorite | Flag 10 years ago by DoYouWash

Are you a feminist?
"Feminism is the radical idea that women are people."


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10 yrs ago, 3 mos ago - Thursday 2/2/12 - 7:58:00 PM EST (GMT-5)
On Thursday 2/2/12 - 9:23:10 AM Mispelled wrote:
In the financial arena, at least, our society has moved to a model where both women and men are expected to work, so it doesn't make sense anymore to have differences in pay or treatment.


This post, in a nut shell, is what completely turns me off from feminist thought, most especially the sentence I've left in. First off, it has to have a specific context or perspective in order to be seen as reasonable and never looks towards the greater context of society but instead attemts to take the general context as an ideal in need of radical fine tuning... Neither of these concepts is true.

Firstly the idea that all adults should work is a temporal economic reality that is far from ideal and which we have no evidence for it's permenance as an institutional reality, especially when we're seeing the problems that come with
10 yrs ago, 3 mos ago - Thursday 2/2/12 - 8:14:25 PM EST (GMT-5)
Excessive production, which would indicate that we need a much lower rate of people working for a healthy society.

Also, the word smithing, "maybe we need a new word or term" is the most ridiculous nonsolution ever. New feminism is a perspective that just yeilds a lot of noise and no solutions because it's a shxtty post mod philosophy that is more interested in in symbolism than actual effects, and to that effect really doesn't offer real solutions to actual problems.

To that effect, victories proclaimed by post modern feminists have nothing to do with their actions and much to do with justifying the current political order rather than having an equitable social arrangements for both genders.

10 yrs ago, 3 mos ago - Thursday 2/2/12 - 8:22:44 PM EST (GMT-5)
I agree with your analysis of society.

Not of feminism though.

Whatever ideal society you envision to remedy the problems of the way things are now, feminists and feminism will adapt to fit that society.
10 yrs ago, 3 mos ago - Thursday 2/2/12 - 8:28:39 PM EST (GMT-5)
Unless of course you advocate a return to a society where gender roles are strictly defined.
10 yrs ago, 3 mos ago - Thursday 2/2/12 - 8:40:10 PM EST (GMT-5)
(is he having a go at post modernism or feminism?)
10 yrs ago, 3 mos ago - Thursday 2/2/12 - 8:47:53 PM EST (GMT-5)
On Thursday 2/2/12 - 8:40:10 PM imagination wrote:
(is he having a go at post modernism or feminism?)


Feminism, at least run from the 50's or 60's on we've had, is grounded in post modern philosophy, so both. Original feminism (sufferage era), was a different animal... Had some commonalities, but I don't see them as the philisophical parent of post modern feminism.
10 yrs ago, 3 mos ago - Thursday 2/2/12 - 8:49:36 PM EST (GMT-5)
On Thursday 2/2/12 - 6:34:32 PM imagination wrote:
Yeah, you're right guys, it was mean of me to point out my frustration at this condescending attitude.


fwiw, I genuinely was going to try and explain mansplaining to IRL. Wasn't being sarcastic or anything.
10 yrs ago, 3 mos ago - Thursday 2/2/12 - 8:52:52 PM EST (GMT-5)
On Thursday 2/2/12 - 8:28:39 PM newtownninja wrote:
Unless of course you advocate a return to a society where gender roles are strictly defined.


I'm a fan of a much stricter definition than now, so that would mean "some semblence of a definition", and it's highly doubtful feminism could take root in an extended family society (which is something I'd be in favor of because it allows for a less than 1 in 10 person employment to easily divide and resources wealth fairly).
10 yrs ago, 3 mos ago - Thursday 2/2/12 - 9:00:57 PM EST (GMT-5)
On Thursday 2/2/12 - 8:52:52 PM Kepi wrote:
I'm a fan of a much stricter definition than now, so that would mean "some semblence of a definition", and it's highly doubtful feminism could take root in an extended family society (which is something I'd be in favor of because it allows for a less than 1 in 10 person employment to easily divide and resources wealth fairly).


Well then I think you're going in the wrong direction with that.

Better to define roles via their utility rather than gender.
10 yrs ago, 3 mos ago - Thursday 2/2/12 - 9:50:05 PM EST (GMT-5)
Except most human experience is not defined or definable by utility... The gender role usage in this capacity IS the utility. Check it... If we're going to say that only one in 10 people are allowed to have jobs, how do you prevent cheating? Well, you parse it out to the easily provables. This way it's obvious instead of complicated.
10 yrs ago, 3 mos ago - Thursday 2/2/12 - 9:53:57 PM EST (GMT-5)
Ugh.

I can't believe this discussion has gone on so long.

The simple fact is that it comes down to people who are pro-gender equality (feminists) vs. sexist pigs and the women they've brainwashed.

F*ck you.
10 yrs ago, 3 mos ago - Thursday 2/2/12 - 10:25:17 PM EST (GMT-5)
I wasn't being condescending, imagination. I didn't think we'd really communicated effectively, so I was trying to be clear.
10 yrs ago, 3 mos ago - Thursday 2/2/12 - 10:33:35 PM EST (GMT-5)
On Thursday 2/2/12 - 9:50:05 PM Kepi wrote:
Except most human experience is not defined or definable by utility... The gender role usage in this capacity IS the utility. Check it... If we're going to say that only one in 10 people are allowed to have jobs, how do you prevent cheating? Well, you parse it out to the easily provables. This way it's obvious instead of complicated.


Wife and homemaker do the same job but one is a gender role and one isn't.

I don't see the difficulty in defining such a role without specifying gender

And you don't prevent cheating via restriction. You do it via incentive.
10 yrs ago, 3 mos ago - Friday 2/3/12 - 12:56:41 AM EST (GMT-5)
There's no such thing as gender equality because there's differences between the sexes that goes beyond plumbing. To disregard differences in neurological wiring is to enslave both sexes in a world that makes neither happy.

Saying "equality" is a total misnomer, because the two aren't the same. They're complimentary, that's not the same as equal.
10 yrs ago, 3 mos ago - Friday 2/3/12 - 1:10:54 AM EST (GMT-5)
Yes
10 yrs ago, 3 mos ago - Friday 2/3/12 - 2:26:24 AM EST (GMT-5)
On Friday 2/3/12 - 12:56:41 AM Kepi wrote:
There's no such thing as gender equality because there's differences between the sexes that goes beyond plumbing. To disregard differences in neurological wiring is to enslave both sexes in a world that makes neither happy. Saying "equality" is a total misnomer, because the two aren't the same. They're complimentary, that's not the same as equal.


lol... you're overemphasizing these differences if you think that they're so pronounced that we can make women stay at home and look after the kids.

The neurological differences between male and female humans aren't even clearly understood (which is the first clue to your bullsh*t)... but I doubt it will ever be the conclusion of the scientific community that they will justify enforcing gender roles beyond the biological.

10 yrs ago, 3 mos ago - Friday 2/3/12 - 2:29:14 AM EST (GMT-5)
I mean if these neurological differences amounted to anything significant, you wouldn't see females excel in many sectors of society in which they once would never have been considered.

From female astronauts, to doctors, scientists, engineers, pilots... you name it.

Women that are 10 times smarter than you or I. (They exist let me assure you... I've met some)
10 yrs ago, 3 mos ago - Friday 2/3/12 - 4:37:09 AM EST (GMT-5)
It's not about smarter or greater or even what one does for a living, I'm of the opinion any given person is pretty much capable of preforming any function. Intelligence is a measure of the swiftness with which you absorb information, not any measure of what you can do... That whole "he's really smart, he's a lawyer"... Fxck that, at most you can say they're dedicated.

However the differences that are neurological are pretty well defined as methodological differences. It's not what we do, it's HOW we do. Differences in how we learn, how we do things, etc. No matter what your societal arrangement, that difference is always going to be there and leaving it unadressed isn't good for either gender.
10 yrs ago, 3 mos ago - Friday 2/3/12 - 4:37:10 AM EST (GMT-5)
is there really any solid proof that women are smarter than men in general? i've met geniuses and idiots from both camps.
10 yrs ago, 3 mos ago - Friday 2/3/12 - 4:52:12 AM EST (GMT-5)
On Thursday 2/2/12 - 6:34:32 PM imagination wrote:
Yeah, you're right guys, it was mean of me to point out my frustration at this condescending attitude.
On Thursday 2/2/12 - 8:49:36 PM Ongooshk wrote:
fwiw, I genuinely was going to try and explain mansplaining to IRL. Wasn't being sarcastic or anything.

I still don't know what it means, and think imagination is the one being condescending. As far as I was concerned, we were two people whose genders had nothing to do w/ it and we didn't quite see where each other was coming from.
10 yrs ago, 3 mos ago - Friday 2/3/12 - 5:39:43 AM EST (GMT-5)
On Friday 2/3/12 - 4:37:09 AM Kepi wrote:
However the differences that are neurological are pretty well defined as methodological differences. It's not what we do, it's HOW we do. Differences in how we learn, how we do things, etc. No matter what your societal arrangement, that difference is always going to be there and leaving it unadressed isn't good for either gender.


Bullsh*t.

Not that the differences aren't there.

But that they are justification for your worldview and as pronounced as you say.

You have no proof and are talking out of your arse.
10 yrs ago, 3 mos ago - Friday 2/3/12 - 11:56:39 AM EST (GMT-5)
No, the differences are there the evidence, research, and analysis is all there, you've just never bothered looking because it contradicts the false world view that you wish could be true, which simultaneously includes emotionally fulfilling jobs for the masses and free daycare all in the same breath.
10 yrs ago, 3 mos ago - Friday 2/3/12 - 3:57:07 PM EST (GMT-5)
lol.. as I said earlier.. we mostly have the same worldview.

And from what I've read, the differences are mostly at an early childhood level and in cases of heightened stress.

Which actually makes me think that women should be open to MORE roles in society due to their preconditioning to be able to think in a way that we can't under pressure.

For example, from what I've read, in times of heightened stress in men, the "fight or flight" centres of the brain are triggered whereas in women have shown to have a more "tend and befriend" approach.
10 yrs ago, 3 mos ago - Friday 2/3/12 - 4:00:42 PM EST (GMT-5)
So as we can see.. while the analysis and evidence is there, the conclusions you're jumping to are just that.

10 yrs ago, 3 mos ago - Friday 2/3/12 - 4:06:13 PM EST (GMT-5)
"due to their preconditioning to be able to think in a way that we can't under pressure."

Oops... should read

"due to their preconditioning to be able to think in a way that we aren't as able to pressure."

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