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116,662 hits 3.6 (5 votes) Share Favorite | Flag 10 years ago by DoYouWash

Are you a feminist?
"Feminism is the radical idea that women are people."


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10 yrs ago, 3 mos ago - Thursday 2/2/12 - 5:49:22 AM EST (GMT-5)
On Wednesday 2/1/12 - 1:41:51 PM Guilty_Spark wrote:
We did almost nothing in Egypt and Tunisia apart from the occasional encouraging thumbs up.

You can't say on the one hand that American culture has been exported everywhere, then turn around and claim a grass roots revolution in an area of the world where we've been fighting 2 wars for nearly a decade had nothing to do w/ our influence.

Do you understand the gray area here, gs? Do you understand that there is meddling and then there is appropriate intervention? Do you understand that in between there is an area that needs to be negotiated and tested?
10 yrs ago, 3 mos ago - Thursday 2/2/12 - 6:00:55 AM EST (GMT-5)
to the point where women are treated as equals to men, but nothing beyond that like what radical feminists want.
10 yrs ago, 3 mos ago - Thursday 2/2/12 - 6:15:07 AM EST (GMT-5)
On Thursday 2/2/12 - 6:00:55 AM Inquizitor wrote:
to the point where women are treated as equals to men, but nothing beyond that like what radical feminists want.

^Here's an example of what I'm talking about, imagination: by emphasizing feminist accomplishments that are now pretty well established w/in our society, it creates the impression that "radical feminists" are more prevalent and leads to the qualifying remarks, eye-rolling, and dismissiveness that does the most real damage to feminism. If you can't convey your message effectively, you can't get anywhere.

Inquiz, if you're planning on, say, going swimming, I doubt you qualify it w/, "...unless a giant monster bird drank all the water." Your reference to radicals above seems paranoid and unnecessary to me, like being okay w/ breast-feeding "as long as they're discreet" or gay people "as long as they don't ogle."
10 yrs ago, 3 mos ago - Thursday 2/2/12 - 6:36:59 AM EST (GMT-5)
i was referring to how women paint men as some sort of evil. the thing i reference most is a radical feminist that equated heterosexual sex to rape. the radicals give it a bad name, just as radical muslims give a bad name to islam, etc etc.

i thought the original goal of feminism was to be treated as equals to men, not to the point of demonizing men.
10 yrs ago, 3 mos ago - Thursday 2/2/12 - 6:54:10 AM EST (GMT-5)
On Wednesday 2/1/12 - 1:41:51 PM Guilty_Spark wrote:
We did almost nothing in Egypt and Tunisia apart from the occasional encouraging thumbs up.
On Thursday 2/2/12 - 5:49:22 AM IRLIteach wrote:
You can't say on the one hand that American culture has been exported everywhere


Good job I didn't say anything about American culture being exported everywhere then, isn't it?

But since you brought it up, no I don't believe Afghanistan and Iraq had any positive influence on the events in Tunisia or Egypt. If anything, it might have delayed matters. After seeing what a nightmare Iraq became after it was "liberated" I'm sure the people of Egypt and Tunisia countries were worried that they would end up a shattered basketcase of a nation too.
10 yrs ago, 3 mos ago - Thursday 2/2/12 - 9:04:51 AM EST (GMT-5)
On Thursday 2/2/12 - 6:36:59 AM Inquizitor wrote:
i was referring to how women paint men as some sort of evil. the thing i reference most is a radical feminist that equated heterosexual sex to rape. the radicals give it a bad name, just as radical muslims give a bad name to islam, etc etc...

Not assuming your intent, Inquiz, but I think the radicals giving various movements bad names are often as much an issue of where people choose to focus. People who want to hate Muslims or feminists *choose* to focus on the extremists as much as anything.

The examples you gave are real and they're bad, but they're such a small # it's easy to write them off as the extremists they are. I think using them as a qualifier ('...except those extremists...") gives them more attention than their #s really warrant.
10 yrs ago, 3 mos ago - Thursday 2/2/12 - 9:10:58 AM EST (GMT-5)
On Thursday 2/2/12 - 5:49:22 AM IRLIteach wrote:
You can't say on the one hand that American culture has been exported everywhere
On Thursday 2/2/12 - 6:54:10 AM Guilty_Spark wrote:
Good job I didn't say anything about American culture being exported everywhere then, isn't it? But since you brought it up, no I don't believe Afghanistan and Iraq had any positive influence...

I meant the general "you," not you personally, though I doubt you're unfamiliar w/ the thought.
I know I brought it up, but I really don't care to get distracted by arguing the finer details of politics in the Middle East. You absolutely have a point about how we should not rush into other places imposing our values. I agree w/ you there. But if you can't concede that there are appropriate, just ways of stepping in, you're only seeing half the picture.
10 yrs ago, 3 mos ago - Thursday 2/2/12 - 9:23:10 AM EST (GMT-5)
Perhaps we need a new word. The word "feminism" has become entwined with radical feminism and most people aren't down with that program.

More like gender egalitarianism, which I don't think many people have a problem with.

In the financial arena, at least, our society has moved to a model where both women and men are expected to work, so it doesn't make sense anymore to have differences in pay or treatment. Generations ago, womens' jobs were to add a bit of income to the family or relieve boredom, so wages and opportunities didn't really have to be commensurate. Nowadays, it's expected (in most families) that man and woman will contribute equally to household expenses. Or people choose not to marry and must carry all of their own expenses.
10 yrs ago, 3 mos ago - Thursday 2/2/12 - 10:26:46 AM EST (GMT-5)
Depends on what you mean by feminist. If you mean the kind that want to change the Canadian National Anthem so that "daughters" are mentioned, can go to hell and they're dumb as sh*t. If you mean the kind that deserve more respect in the workplace and have better opportunities, oh sure, I have no issues with that, I agree then.
10 yrs ago, 3 mos ago - Thursday 2/2/12 - 11:54:15 AM EST (GMT-5)
On Thursday 2/2/12 - 9:10:58 AM IRLIteach wrote:
But if you can't concede that there are appropriate, just ways of stepping in, you're only seeing half the picture.


There are. If we are ASKED to step in by the people affected. Otherwise, we're poking our noses in.

Women's rights in places like Saudi Arabia or human rights in China are a matter for the Chinese and Saudis to deal with, not us. If we don't like how they treat people, the solution is simple. Don't do business with them.
10 yrs ago, 3 mos ago - Thursday 2/2/12 - 12:02:14 PM EST (GMT-5)
I think it's our responsibility to act where we see something that crosses the line of culture, personal freedom, choice, etc, and becomes consensus abuse. Victims can't always speak up for themselves safely.

I'm not claiming it's an easy thing. You seem to be, what w/ setting the bar at "not until we're asked, period."
10 yrs ago, 3 mos ago - Thursday 2/2/12 - 12:06:31 PM EST (GMT-5)
On Thursday 2/2/12 - 12:02:14 PM IRLIteach wrote:
I'm not claiming it's an easy thing. You seem to be, what w/ setting the bar at "not until we're asked, period."


More or less, yes.
10 yrs ago, 3 mos ago - Thursday 2/2/12 - 12:15:50 PM EST (GMT-5)
If "more or less" means there is room for exceptions, we're essentially saying the same thing. If not, I think I've spent as much time on this as it warrants.
10 yrs ago, 3 mos ago - Thursday 2/2/12 - 1:20:58 PM EST (GMT-5)
On Thursday 2/2/12 - 11:54:15 AM Guilty_Spark wrote:
Women's rights in places like Saudi Arabia or human rights in China are a matter for the Chinese and Saudis to deal with, not us.

I mean, it's a clean, safe position to take...
but I'm not entirely impressed with neutrality in the face of blatant human rights abuses
choosing to do nothing in times of moral crisis is siding with the oppressor, nothing more
10 yrs ago, 3 mos ago - Thursday 2/2/12 - 1:57:32 PM EST (GMT-5)
On Thursday 2/2/12 - 12:15:50 PM IRLIteach wrote:
If "more or less" means there is room for exceptions, we're essentially saying the same thing. If not, I think I've spent as much time on this as it warrants.


I think the only difference is I would have fewer exceptions than you.
10 yrs ago, 3 mos ago - Thursday 2/2/12 - 2:46:25 PM EST (GMT-5)
On Thursday 2/2/12 - 11:54:15 AM Guilty_Spark wrote:
Women's rights in places like Saudi Arabia or human rights in China are a matter for the Chinese and Saudis to deal with, not us.
On Thursday 2/2/12 - 1:20:58 PM Kungfullama wrote:
I mean, it's a clean, safe position to take... but I'm not entirely impressed with neutrality in the face of blatant human rights abuses choosing to do nothing in times of moral crisis is siding with the oppressor, nothing more

Yep. Huge difference between respecting others' cultures and being apathetic to abuse.
10 yrs ago, 3 mos ago - Thursday 2/2/12 - 5:25:49 PM EST (GMT-5)
On Thursday 2/2/12 - 6:00:55 AM Inquizitor wrote:
to the point where women are treated as equals to men, but nothing beyond that like what radical feminists want.
On Thursday 2/2/12 - 6:15:07 AM IRLIteach wrote:
^Here's an example of what I'm talking about, imagination: by emphasizing feminist accomplishments that are now pretty well established w/in our society, it creates the impression that "radical feminists" are more prevalent and leads to the qualifying remarks, eye-rolling, and dismissiveness that does the most real damage to feminism. If you can't convey your message effectively, you can't get anywhere.

Well, thanks for mansplaining something to me in a thread about feminism.

That. Was. Hilarious.

10 yrs ago, 3 mos ago - Thursday 2/2/12 - 5:55:13 PM EST (GMT-5)
Are you suggesting that feminism is the sole property of women? B/c unless you are, there's no reason to consider an explanation about how it can come across to people (a man, as Inquiz happens to be) as "hilarious."
10 yrs ago, 3 mos ago - Thursday 2/2/12 - 6:20:26 PM EST (GMT-5)
Absolutely not. I think that men, just like inquiz, who agree that us ladies can be their equals are great. Nothing gives me hope like hearing a man talk about feminism, it's second only to witnessing them confront misogyny.

I just think it's so unbelievably funny that you made a point that I fully understood and did not disagree with, then when I filled out the story a bit for you and tried to show that that we deal with worse than eye rolling, you glossed over that in a single sentence and then mansplained (in a thread about FEMINISM, omfg hilarious) your point again to me, just for good measure- then finished up your mansplanation with 'you're not doing it right'.

I'm just tickled by it, is all.






10 yrs ago, 3 mos ago - Thursday 2/2/12 - 6:22:17 PM EST (GMT-5)
I was going to explain to IRL what "mansplaining" was, then I realised I'd be mansplaining "mansplaining".
10 yrs ago, 3 mos ago - Thursday 2/2/12 - 6:27:43 PM EST (GMT-5)
I'm against the patriarchal paradigm as much as anyone but I've never been a fan of a lot of the language that's come out of it, "mansplaining" being part of it
I mean I get that it's in theory supposed to mean a man condescendingly explaining to a woman something that she already knows
but can equally be used to discredit a man from trying to take part in a dialogue (perhaps ineptly so but trying nonetheless) by simple dismissing

I just don't think it's very constructive and turns off potential allies
10 yrs ago, 3 mos ago - Thursday 2/2/12 - 6:34:32 PM EST (GMT-5)
Yeah, you're right guys, it was mean of me to point out my frustration at this condescending attitude.

10 yrs ago, 3 mos ago - Thursday 2/2/12 - 6:38:24 PM EST (GMT-5)
On Thursday 2/2/12 - 2:46:25 PM IRLIteach wrote:
Yep. Huge difference between respecting others' cultures and being apathetic to abuse.


Except when it's religion of course

Then you'll excuse even the most explicitly horrific passages.
10 yrs ago, 3 mos ago - Thursday 2/2/12 - 7:18:18 PM EST (GMT-5)
Yes, I believe in equal pay for equal work, but at the same time, no one addresses the bias toward females in school (elementary especially) due to a majority of teachers being female.
10 yrs ago, 3 mos ago - Thursday 2/2/12 - 7:29:24 PM EST (GMT-5)
I knew a infant's school teacher who reckoned this was because men who want to work with young kids are worried that they'll be accused of pedophilia.


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