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3,225 hits Rate me! Share Favorite | Flag 17 years ago by misophist

Do you believe in free will?
Atheists and agnostics, take a second before you post something stupid and think about it.


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17 yrs ago, 9 mos ago - Wednesday 10/15/03 - 6:13:38 AM EST (GMT-5)
No I don't think I do. You have control over your actions but I think some things are just destined to happen like for example who you are meant to marry, if you are meant to have children. It is already pre-written. Free will is something that people like to think they have but in fact they don't. We have choice but not free will everyone is destined for everything. You are faced with options and you make a choice but whatever choice you make the events following that choice are destined.
17 yrs ago, 9 mos ago - Wednesday 10/15/03 - 6:16:00 AM EST (GMT-5)
You might have got a good, open-minded intelligent thread until you wrote the stupid comment. Not at all presumptious are you Misophist?
17 yrs ago, 9 mos ago - Wednesday 10/15/03 - 6:16:20 AM EST (GMT-5)
I choose not to get involved in this discussion.
17 yrs ago, 9 mos ago - Wednesday 10/15/03 - 6:16:33 AM EST (GMT-5)
OH YEAH! That poor whale went through a lot, I think he should be as free as you and me
17 yrs ago, 9 mos ago - Wednesday 10/15/03 - 6:17:36 AM EST (GMT-5)
but putting that aside I wonder where you got those ideas njl?
17 yrs ago, 9 mos ago - Wednesday 10/15/03 - 6:31:28 AM EST (GMT-5)
That makes no sense to me, njl. If you didn't have the freedom to choose otherwise, how was it a choice? Destiny is not something you can attribute retrospectively. That something happens, and is now unchangeable from the future does not mean it *would* have happened.

As for the question, I haven't decided yet. The prior causes counter-argument is still there - and I'm not certain that complete understanding of causation is a necessary requirement for its validity. Nonetheless, the exact definition of free will is crucial. It's conceivable, if somewhat a case of verbal sleight of hand, to suggest that something indistinguishable from free will - which is what we apparently have - is functionally the same.

What have atheism and agnosticism got to do with this?

17 yrs ago, 9 mos ago - Wednesday 10/15/03 - 7:58:41 AM EST (GMT-5)
I believe that "Free Willy" was a gayass movie...oh, that's not what you meant, lol!
17 yrs ago, 9 mos ago - Wednesday 10/15/03 - 8:31:32 AM EST (GMT-5)
Poor willy, I would to go free him myself...actually i think i might go free him right now.
17 yrs ago, 9 mos ago - Wednesday 10/15/03 - 8:35:34 AM EST (GMT-5)
Of course. No one controls what we do. Fate is a nice idea though.
17 yrs ago, 9 mos ago - Wednesday 10/15/03 - 10:08:04 AM EST (GMT-5)
If you belive in fate,then you must belive that there is no free will. We all think we make our own decisions, yet EVERYTHING is already planned out.
17 yrs ago, 9 mos ago - Wednesday 10/15/03 - 10:09:26 AM EST (GMT-5)
actually, free will and predestination are not mutually exclusive.

I believe in both.

17 yrs ago, 9 mos ago - Wednesday 10/15/03 - 10:10:11 AM EST (GMT-5)
Although you can have a lack of free will without determinism - the decision process itself is what makes free will.
17 yrs ago, 9 mos ago - Wednesday 10/15/03 - 10:14:26 AM EST (GMT-5)
How precisely does that work, Fenris?
17 yrs ago, 9 mos ago - Wednesday 10/15/03 - 10:17:01 AM EST (GMT-5)
Yes i do.
17 yrs ago, 9 mos ago - Wednesday 10/15/03 - 12:11:43 PM EST (GMT-5)
simple (at least in my conception of it) if you remember a couple of points.
1) free will is limited by ability. I can will myself to fly if I step off a roof all I want, I'm still falling.
2) God is outside of time, and not bound by it. Therefore, His perspective is entirely different. He 'simultaneously' hears the prayers of the WWII pilot, me and a Christian about to be eaten by lions in 1st cntury Rome.

I will give you an example, but I really don't know how much time I will have to defend it.
-----------
Let's say that you have a frog, and you put it in a terrarium. For analogies sake, let's say that you don't feed it for a few days. Then, you put a fly in the system. What's going to happen? (I would surmise that the frog would eat the fly). Now, the question could be asked. Did the frog choose, or did you predestine it? LEt's take the analogy one step further.{more]

17 yrs ago, 9 mos ago - Wednesday 10/15/03 - 12:13:38 PM EST (GMT-5)
what if you designed the frog from the base molecules it is composed of. Let's say you designed the fly from its base molecules. You 'programmed' (for lack of better word) the physiology of 'hunger' and 'prey response' into the frog. Now, is it free will or predestination? I say it's both.

These conversations tend to limit God, or try to put Him in a box in some way, because of the limitations of the mind to comprehend infinity and paradoxes. Christianity is a big paradox.

17 yrs ago, 9 mos ago - Wednesday 10/15/03 - 12:26:16 PM EST (GMT-5)
Predestination makes things a certainty. Creating a situation where something is merely likely, based on the inclinations - arguably, choices - of the parties involved, does not.

Isn't it necessary to Christianity for God to be within time, in order for him to be a person?

17 yrs ago, 9 mos ago - Wednesday 10/15/03 - 12:28:25 PM EST (GMT-5)
Jesus, the God/Man *did* enter into space and time, but it is not necessary for God the Father to remain in space/time. God is simultaneously three and one. One God, three 'persons'.
Another paradox.


Predestination only makes things a certainty to the 'predestinator' (I know, it sounds cheesy, but I couldn't think of a better word)

17 yrs ago, 9 mos ago - Wednesday 10/15/03 - 12:29:28 PM EST (GMT-5)
Oh, woop de doo. A bollocksfication of the question.
17 yrs ago, 9 mos ago - Wednesday 10/15/03 - 12:30:57 PM EST (GMT-5)
I really amen't sure here. The conventional definition is certainly lacking. I do, however, believe it's a very good idea to at least think as though you do.
17 yrs ago, 9 mos ago - Wednesday 10/15/03 - 12:35:49 PM EST (GMT-5)
To clarify: I think fenris is needlessly complicating this so he doesn't actualy have to think about it. Just because it's a tough subject doesn't mean it has to cheerfuly ignore all known facts. That's a rather dull explination, and one that doesn't really explain much at all.
17 yrs ago, 9 mos ago - Wednesday 10/15/03 - 12:38:55 PM EST (GMT-5)
on the contrary, timber, I've thought about this a long time. If you knew me at all, you'd know I don't take this stuff lightly.

And I don't think I've ignored any 'facts', nor was my analogy meant to explain all nuances of the theology behind my beliefs. Kyry asked me to explain how I thought free will and predestination could not be mutually exclusive, and I tried, in roughly 1000 characters, to come up with an adequate one that communicated what I could.

needlessly complicating, or you just so locked into your own worldview that you call mine bollocks and belittle me?

17 yrs ago, 9 mos ago - Wednesday 10/15/03 - 12:50:49 PM EST (GMT-5)
I don't believe things are pre-destined. I believe every choice we make affects what happens next. Many things in life we can control, and many we can't, mainly due to the actions of others or naturally occurring events. However, I don't think any of this is determined in advance. It's freewill that defines who we are.
17 yrs ago, 9 mos ago - Wednesday 10/15/03 - 12:53:01 PM EST (GMT-5)
Why does predestination make things a certainty to the architect of the predestination? ()

A sideline, but the concept of something being simultaneously within and without time seems logically impossible. Although if there were three, this would be avoided, however, that in itself seems logically impossible. But you acknowledge this anyway.

17 yrs ago, 9 mos ago - Wednesday 10/15/03 - 12:59:42 PM EST (GMT-5)
"Atheists and agnostics, take a second before you post something stupid and think about it."

Right. Because theists never post anything stupid.

To answer the question, I do believe in free will.


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