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10,491 hits Rate me! Share Favorite | Flag 12 years ago by pegasus

Do invertebrates feel pain?
Why? Why not?


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12 yrs ago, 1 mos ago - Thursday 4/23/09 - 6:52:31 PM EST (GMT-5)
It has nothing to do with intelligence, just the way their body is assigned.

They will avoid danger, but they will not feel the pain once the danger reaches them.
12 yrs ago, 1 mos ago - Thursday 4/23/09 - 6:52:42 PM EST (GMT-5)
designed*
12 yrs ago, 1 mos ago - Thursday 4/23/09 - 6:55:35 PM EST (GMT-5)
On Thursday 4/23/09 - 6:31:00 PM Proserpine wrote:
Invertebrates have a very limited nervous system, and do not release stress hormones when a harmful stimulus is introduced. They need not learn from pain or pleasure in order to survive and reproduce, so there's no evolutionary pressure for them to develop a more sophisticated nervous system.


"Invertebrates" includes a huge number of animals, some with quite complex nervous systems. Some species of cuttlefish and octopi can learn and do release stress hormones. Granted, most invertebrate non-cephalopods probably have an extremely limited capacity to learn, but they do have stress related hormones which are upregulated in stressful conditions (I'm thinking of a specific study involving shaking, heating, or changing salinity in oysters).
12 yrs ago, 1 mos ago - Thursday 4/23/09 - 7:11:56 PM EST (GMT-5)
Cephalopods are an exception, and they very well could feel pain, octopi having more brain activity than many mammals.

But there's no way that an insect could.
12 yrs ago, 1 mos ago - Thursday 4/23/09 - 7:44:35 PM EST (GMT-5)
<digression>
Octopi are smart, I saw one at the aquarium that had learned to unscrew (will "screw" be censored?) the lid of a glass containing food. I was deeply impressed.
<digression/>
12 yrs ago, 1 mos ago - Thursday 4/23/09 - 8:22:24 PM EST (GMT-5)
Yeah, octopi are smarter than cats.

They're pretty cool.
12 yrs ago, 1 mos ago - Thursday 4/23/09 - 8:45:24 PM EST (GMT-5)
On Wednesday 4/22/09 - 2:14:28 PM Proserpine wrote:
No. Just because something flinches away from a harmful stimulus does not mean that it feels the effect the harmful stimulus has on it.

Yes, this is what I said earlier. But how do you get "no" from that? It's not like it's been proven either way
12 yrs ago, 1 mos ago - Thursday 4/23/09 - 8:49:06 PM EST (GMT-5)
On Thursday 4/23/09 - 6:32:24 PM kyry wrote:
I think the important point is that we cannot claim that flinching away from a damaging (therefore painful) stimulus is an indication that the organism in question actually *feels* the pain.

exactly. it frustrates me to no end. we probably can never really know.
11 yrs ago, 4 mos ago - Saturday 1/16/10 - 1:17:09 PM EST (GMT-5)
On Thursday 4/23/09 - 6:44:23 PM Proserpine wrote:
Sander, you can't say sh*t on American TV or radio. Buddy's just using the FCC laws.

You can on certain stations on the T.V., much less nowadays though and its only in the middle of the night it seems like, and on the radio i hear sh1t all the time
11 yrs ago, 4 mos ago - Saturday 1/16/10 - 1:17:49 PM EST (GMT-5)
and i dont think they feel pain, But they do know when their body is getting hurt and they try to avoid that.
11 yrs ago, 4 mos ago - Saturday 1/16/10 - 1:36:03 PM EST (GMT-5)
On Saturday 1/16/10 - 1:17:49 PM Dethklokk420 wrote:
and i dont think they feel pain, But they do know when their body is getting hurt and they try to avoid that.


wouldn't that be pain?
11 yrs ago, 3 mos ago - Monday 3/1/10 - 10:33:53 AM EST (GMT-5)
yah it really gives a new ideas
+++++++++pais ++++++++
{[[[[[likale}}}}}]]
11 yrs ago, 3 mos ago - Monday 3/1/10 - 10:42:24 AM EST (GMT-5)
On Saturday 1/16/10 - 1:17:49 PM Dethklokk420 wrote:
and i dont think they feel pain, But they do know when their body is getting hurt and they try to avoid that.
On Saturday 1/16/10 - 1:36:03 PM glennh70 wrote:
wouldn't that be pain?

That's what I was wondering. What's the (scientific) definition of pain?
11 yrs ago, 3 mos ago - Monday 3/1/10 - 10:56:34 AM EST (GMT-5)
The distinction I usually see is that pain is used to refer to the subjective, unpleasant experience associated with an aversive/damaging stimulus. The detection/processing of damaging stimulation in itself is nociception.

I would probably use 'feeling pain' synonymously with 'knowing when their body is getting hurt', both imply an awareness of their subjective state.
11 yrs ago - Monday 5/17/10 - 5:37:08 AM EST (GMT-5)
My general conclusion from reading the literature is that the scientific jury is still very much out. I put together an article, "Do Insects Feel Pain" (http://www.utilitarian-essays.com/insec t-pain.html), that includes quotes from a number of references on the subject. In particular, I highly recommend the report, "Aspects of the biology and welfare of animals used for experimental and other scientific purposes" (http://www.efsa.europa.eu/en/scdocs/doc /292.pdf).

In the mean time, I think we should give some weight to the possibility of insect suffering in our decisions. One implication of this is that, with a billion billion insects on the planet (http://www.utilitarian-essays.com/numbe r-of-wild-animals.html), nature potentially contains a huge amount of suffering endured by very small organisms with short lifespans (http://www.utilitarian-essays.com/suffe ring-nature.html).
11 yrs ago - Friday 5/28/10 - 4:20:16 PM EST (GMT-5)
I know worms do. A friend of mine took a match to one and it curled up like it was flinching from pain. And when you dump salt on a slug, they practically WRITHE in pain.
11 yrs ago - Friday 5/28/10 - 4:22:28 PM EST (GMT-5)
I have no clue, because I'm not a scientist, and I'm surely not an expert.

However, I'd prefer to err on the side that they DO.

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