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After court ruling, activists push prayer into schools

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2 months ago - Tuesday 8/2/22 - 2:51:24 PM EST (GMT-5)
On Tuesday 8/2/22 - 2:05:12 PM Boredofu wrote:
Fascists are not invariably Nazis and Fascist can be an attitude rather than adherence to the pure ideals of Fascist doctrine. When Bush said You are either with us or you are with the terrorists. That was a Fascist attitude.


Yeah, definitely fascism can be an attitude, and here in 2022, I've done enough research to tell you I have two strong concerns about how the attitude of fascism actually winds up creating the application of fascist ideals. The first is obvious, like your GWB example it's tightening the reigns on who is in the in group until you make an enforcable heirarchy, which is what GWB did even though he, I think, clearly never actually wanted to. GWBs ideals were at worst pretty par for the course in his era, and were sometimes pretty admirable (look, dude sucked ass 99% of the time, but his
2 months ago - Tuesday 8/2/22 - 2:58:40 PM EST (GMT-5)
Antimalarial work was on point, and overall sooner of the things he did in dedication to public health were surprisingly prescient), but his attitude was fascist and the problem is that when you're a leader you're on 100% of the time so your attitude and you one jerk reactions need to be clean because people will be reacting to them now than your polished response. And that man did more to lead us down the path to fascism than Trump actually did (Trump was just trying to ice the cake and got stopped before he could get the cherry on top).

The other way is the ping pong. And that's the SJW type. SJW values get bounced off by fascists all the time because the values are opposed but the dispositions are congruent. This is one of the things Bannon did to radicalize people. It's in his book. He knew that is he showcased annoying SJWs with bad takes to the right audience, enough would
2 months ago - Tuesday 8/2/22 - 3:01:08 PM EST (GMT-5)
Fash to bolster their ranks. And it's in his book. He paid people to make that exposure happen. And that may not be the SJWs fault, but they need to start taking responsibility for it if they don't want these fashy types using their content as recruiting. And it requires an attitude adjustment.
1 month ago - Thursday 8/4/22 - 5:20:53 PM EST (GMT-5)
On Monday 8/1/22 - 2:13:03 PM Atia wrote:
I don't think there should be classes like the History of Christianity. Not in a public school.


Why not? I think that the public schools are the perfect place to learn about the various religions we have in this world.

Maybe if more people learned and understood more about about other religions, we would have more tolerance for those that believe differently.
1 month ago - Thursday 8/4/22 - 7:32:31 PM EST (GMT-5)
History of Christianity might be too deep for high school, but a General Religion class would be good. Something where they can learn about the major religions of the world and get a basic understanding of them.
1 month ago - Thursday 8/4/22 - 7:55:59 PM EST (GMT-5)
I wouldn't trust the state to be able to administer a reasonable comparative religions course at the highschool level. The kids would be able to handle the course work, but the competing interests in state legislatures would destroy those legislatures.
1 month ago - Thursday 8/4/22 - 8:38:05 PM EST (GMT-5)
I don’t think any class on religion in public schools is appropriate. There are over 4,000 religions. Which religions would be discussed and what if the majority of the students are Christian and only a few are Jewish or Muslim or Atheist? There will for sure be conflicts and arguments (Jesus is or is not the son of God) and students feeling ostracized.

Should the instructor talk about all the harm religion has caused and all the wars and people killed in the name of religion?

Maybe show a video of Muslims stoning a woman to death for adultery. Maybe discus the Inquisition when the Roman Catholic Church took property and tortured countless innocent people.

What if a student brings up topics such as Intelligent Design? Should the instructor tell the truth there is absolutely no verifiable evidence that Intelligent Design is true knowing it will anger some students and parents?

1 month ago - Thursday 8/4/22 - 8:54:18 PM EST (GMT-5)
Discussing religion in a history class how religion impacted and still impacts society and often conflicted with science such as when the Catholic Church banned Nicholas Copernicus’ book “On the Revolutions of the Celestial Spheres” would be appropriate.
1 month ago - Thursday 8/4/22 - 9:36:40 PM EST (GMT-5)
But you'd also have to bring up how without religion there'd be no science (Islamic Golden Age, Christian monasticism and it's contribution to natural philosophy, and even things like Isaac Newton's mysticism) and how the dogma guess both ways, and how sometimes it's warranted (intelligent design) and sometimes it's not (big bang theory).

On the political end of the spectrum you would also have to talk about how religion within politics is usually a means of manipulation, not doctrine or religious practice. The politics of the crusades, for insurance. You also couldn't leave out the religious contributions to both sides of abolition of slavery, the labor movement, and civil rights.

Plus you still wind up with the same problem where minority religions won't get good play in most cases. Like there's not many, if any positive examples of Norse paganism that you can point to (largely
1 month ago - Thursday 8/4/22 - 9:40:02 PM EST (GMT-5)
because nobody knows how it was practiced when it was prevalent) but there's one really bad black mark on it's recent history where you don't really have any positive examples to offer.
1 month ago - Thursday 8/4/22 - 10:13:40 PM EST (GMT-5)
On Thursday 8/4/22 - 9:36:40 PM Kepi wrote:
But you'd also have to bring up how without religion there'd be no science


Sorry but that is completely not true. Science limits itself to the empirical verifiable evidence, framing and testing hypotheses and would have continued without any religious interference.

Religion believes in a supernatural agent with no evidence the claim is true. Religious people believed Thor was the God of thunder and lightning but science determined religions were wrong. Religion has often slowed the advancement of science and is still doing so. The attempt to introduce Intelligent Design in high school science class rooms is an example.
1 month ago - Thursday 8/4/22 - 10:32:05 PM EST (GMT-5)
It's 100% true. Where do you think they got the staff to do science before the late 1800's? Occasionally you'd get some rich guys that would rather do science than get drunk, bang eachother's wives and have sword fights about it, but they were statistically rare. The primary source of labor in history was the monastic community. I mean River Bacon, Franciscan monk, is credited with the development of the scientific method in the early 1200'and for about 600 years the people who had the tools and, more importantly, the time to engage in science were monks. In the Renaissance, you had some rich guys who did it, but still they weren't really running the show until the late 1800's. And most of your breakout renaissance and enlightenment era polymaths were educated almost entirely by monks and clergy.

I mean shxt, the biggest theory governing the creation of the universe was developed
1 month ago - Thursday 8/4/22 - 10:38:08 PM EST (GMT-5)
by a priest and decried by established modern scientists (including Albert Einstein) as being the church trying to insert theology into science. It took a couple decades for the Big Bang Theory to catch on. Gregor Mendel was the monk that developed or initial understanding of genetics.

The church is still pretty instrumental in the world of science, and pretty intent on abiding by the rules. The only place you've really seen a strong, staunch anti-science attitude coming from religion is usually fringe religious groups with a heavy handed political agenda.
1 month ago - Thursday 8/4/22 - 10:49:49 PM EST (GMT-5)
The problem with your assertion is there is no evidence that science would not have developed without religion.

Yes, religion helped in developing theories but they also fought against science when it went against religious beliefs as I gave an example of Copernicus.

Science would have been just fine without religion and most likely progressed faster without religious interference.
1 month ago - Thursday 8/4/22 - 11:12:01 PM EST (GMT-5)
On Thursday 8/4/22 - 10:49:49 PM Atia wrote:
The problem with your assertion is there is no evidence that science would not have developed without religion.


There's absolutely evidence in the labor practices of all non-clergy and non-monastic people at the time that science was developed. And for about 600 years prior, the church was busy preserving the knowledge that laid the foundations for science. Before science, before universities, the repository of knowledge in Europe was created and maintained by the church. Even if there has been a scientific revolution at the same time, without the church we'd be thousands of years behind.

The Copernicus example has a flaw in that the decision was much more political than it was theological and the university that Copernicus worked at was funded by the church and staffed by the church. I mean their motto is "St. Peter is
1 month ago - Thursday 8/4/22 - 11:18:19 PM EST (GMT-5)
everywhere the father of the law, Bologna is its mother." Which sums up both the inherent controversy and the political nature of it. The story of Copernicus is one of church infighting, not of some outsider who was somehow rebellioning against the church. Dude also did work in church Canon Law. He was a Catholic working at a Catholic University, and he didn't even go protestant when all his friends did. Church infighting is pretty much an ongoing constant.
1 month ago - Thursday 8/4/22 - 11:26:02 PM EST (GMT-5)
I already acknowledged that many technical innovations prior to the scientific revolution were achieved by societies organized by religious traditions.

But that does not mean science would not have developed without religion.

It also really does not apply to the original comment that there would be problems trying to teach a religious studies class to high school students.
1 month ago - Thursday 8/4/22 - 11:28:15 PM EST (GMT-5)
Sorry I have go. Done with my research evaluation and they are kicking everyone out.
1 month ago - Thursday 8/4/22 - 11:36:18 PM EST (GMT-5)
On Thursday 8/4/22 - 11:26:02 PM Atia wrote:
I already acknowledged that many technical innovations prior to the scientific revolution were achieved by societies organized by religious traditions. But that does not mean science would not have developed without religion.


Yes, it does, because without religion there would have been no reason to have monastics and without monastics there would have been no pool of labor to commit to scientific activity. Especially since days of came from the church. When was the last time your boss just game everybody a day off and said "we're not operating today?" Everybody else was a government official, tradesman, or serf. When would they have the time to do science? Especially without the ¹00 or so church sponsored days off?
1 month ago - Thursday 8/4/22 - 11:37:48 PM EST (GMT-5)
On Thursday 8/4/22 - 11:26:02 PM Atia wrote:
It also really does not apply to the original comment that there would be problems trying to teach a religious studies class to high school students.


Oh it absolutely does, we can't even get a non-propagandized history class. What hope would we have covering religion in any capacity?
1 month ago - Saturday 8/6/22 - 1:41:30 AM EST (GMT-5)
On Thursday 8/4/22 - 8:38:05 PM Atia wrote:
I don’t think any class on religion in public schools is appropriate. There are over 4,000 religions. Which religions would be discussed


The major ones: Christianity, Judaism, Islam, Buddhism, and Hinduism. Then a briefly discuss the others. And a brief discussion of Atheism.

1 month ago - Saturday 8/6/22 - 1:43:45 AM EST (GMT-5)
On Thursday 8/4/22 - 8:38:05 PM Atia wrote:
what if the majority of the students are Christian and only a few are Jewish or Muslim or Atheist? There will for sure be conflicts and arguments (Jesus is or is not the son of God) and students feeling ostracized.


The purpose of the class is to learn about religions other than your own. It's not to have a debate about which is the best or true religion.
1 month ago - Saturday 8/6/22 - 1:46:18 AM EST (GMT-5)
On Thursday 8/4/22 - 8:38:05 PM Atia wrote:
Should the instructor talk about all the harm religion has caused and all the wars and people killed in the name of religion?


Perhaps the instructor can talk about all the good that has come from religion, such as charity and love for your fellow man, etc.
1 month ago - Saturday 8/6/22 - 1:51:54 AM EST (GMT-5)
On Thursday 8/4/22 - 8:38:05 PM Atia wrote:
Maybe show a video of Muslims stoning a woman to death for adultery. Maybe discus the Inquisition when the Roman Catholic Church took property and tortured countless innocent people.


Sure, they can talk about these things. I wouldn't show a video of it though.
1 month ago - Saturday 8/6/22 - 1:53:29 AM EST (GMT-5)
On Thursday 8/4/22 - 8:38:05 PM Atia wrote:
What if a student brings up topics such as Intelligent Design? Should the instructor tell the truth there is absolutely no verifiable evidence that Intelligent Design is true knowing it will anger some students and parents?


They can surely discuss it. Why not?

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