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9,334 hits Rate me! Share Favorite | Flag 11 years ago by pegasus

Do invertebrates feel pain?
Why? Why not?


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11 yrs ago, 7 mos ago - Tuesday 4/14/09 - 9:36:11 PM EST (GMT-5)
I'd love to know what everyone thinks..
11 yrs ago, 7 mos ago - Tuesday 4/14/09 - 9:41:09 PM EST (GMT-5)
If they have sensory nerves, they probably feel pain...
11 yrs ago, 7 mos ago - Wednesday 4/15/09 - 4:04:53 AM EST (GMT-5)
yes, as they have sense nerves
11 yrs ago, 7 mos ago - Wednesday 4/15/09 - 6:19:25 AM EST (GMT-5)
of course they do.
11 yrs ago, 7 mos ago - Wednesday 4/15/09 - 8:50:30 AM EST (GMT-5)
They have nerve endings, and react to damaging stimulus, so why wouldn't they?

They may not feel pain the exact same way we do, but it's still pain.
11 yrs ago, 7 mos ago - Wednesday 4/15/09 - 10:50:44 AM EST (GMT-5)
Well, some research has found that their nervous system isn't as evolved as ours is, so that they may not feel pain. Just because they react to noxious stimuli doesn't necessarily mean they are in pain.

On the other hand, I read a report last night saying that lobsters apparently do feel pain.

I don't know. I'm just curious.
11 yrs ago, 7 mos ago - Wednesday 4/15/09 - 11:01:10 AM EST (GMT-5)
Hmm. I think they feel pain.
11 yrs ago, 7 mos ago - Wednesday 4/15/09 - 12:08:26 PM EST (GMT-5)
On Wednesday 4/15/09 - 10:50:44 AM pegasus wrote:
Well, some research has found that their nervous system isn't as evolved as ours is, so that they may not feel pain. Just because they react to noxious stimuli doesn't necessarily mean they are in pain. On the other hand, I read a report last night saying that lobsters apparently do feel pain. I don't know. I'm just curious.


No research has shown that invertebrate nervous systems aren't as evolved as ours. Every shred of evidence we have indicates that they are just as evolved as ours (i.e. they have been and continue to evolve for just as long as ours have, if not longer). It also indicates that their nervous systems are much less complex than ours. The two concepts are distinct.
11 yrs ago, 7 mos ago - Wednesday 4/15/09 - 5:25:31 PM EST (GMT-5)
Yes because even though they do not have bones they still have their body that could hurt if something happened to them.
11 yrs ago, 7 mos ago - Wednesday 4/15/09 - 5:44:14 PM EST (GMT-5)
On Wednesday 4/15/09 - 10:50:44 AM pegasus wrote:
Well, some research has found that their nervous system isn't as evolved as ours is, so that they may not feel pain. Just because they react to noxious stimuli doesn't necessarily mean they are in pain. On the other hand, I read a report last night saying that lobsters apparently do feel pain. I don't know. I'm just curious.


As catchall says, it makes no sense to say "more" or "less" evolved; one can describe theirs as less sophisticated, though this is neither a measure of "amount" of evolution and nor does it correspond to selective fitness.

Is the question asking whether they have a conscious sensation of pain (as opposed merely to pain reception and hormonal/behavioural response to pain)?
11 yrs ago, 7 mos ago - Wednesday 4/15/09 - 6:13:48 PM EST (GMT-5)
Yes I think so.
11 yrs ago, 7 mos ago - Thursday 4/16/09 - 5:01:20 AM EST (GMT-5)
On Wednesday 4/15/09 - 10:50:44 AM pegasus wrote:
Well, some research has found that their nervous system isn't as evolved as ours is, so that they may not feel pain. Just because they react to noxious stimuli doesn't necessarily mean they are in pain. On the other hand, I read a report last night saying that lobsters apparently do feel pain. I don't know. I'm just curious.
On Wednesday 4/15/09 - 5:44:14 PM kyry wrote:
As catchall says, it makes no sense to say "more" or "less" evolved; one can describe theirs as less sophisticated, though this is neither a measure of "amount" of evolution and nor does it correspond to selective fitness. Is the question asking whether they have a conscious sensation of pain (as opposed merely to pain reception and hormonal/behavioural response to pain)?


Yes.
11 yrs ago, 7 mos ago - Wednesday 4/22/09 - 2:08:53 PM EST (GMT-5)
Ov course they do! Aparentally my well weird horticulture teacher sayed that when you cut a plant they cry out in pain!?!? Though we can't hear it, so if thats true (not that I belive it) then invertabrates defo.
11 yrs ago, 7 mos ago - Wednesday 4/22/09 - 2:14:28 PM EST (GMT-5)
No.

Just because something flinches away from a harmful stimulus does not mean that it feels the effect the harmful stimulus has on it.
11 yrs ago, 7 mos ago - Thursday 4/23/09 - 5:18:37 AM EST (GMT-5)
On Wednesday 4/22/09 - 2:08:53 PM xXLvr_H8rXx wrote:
Ov course they do! Aparentally my well weird horticulture teacher sayed that when you cut a plant they cry out in pain!?!? Though we can't hear it, so if thats true (not that I belive it) then invertabrates defo.


That's ludicrous - you have a horticulture teacher?!
11 yrs ago, 7 mos ago - Thursday 4/23/09 - 10:19:03 AM EST (GMT-5)
On Thursday 4/23/09 - 5:18:37 AM kyry wrote:
That's ludicrous - you have a horticulture teacher?!

Well I used to have a horticulture teacher, she was really weird. I only did it so I din't have to learn Welsh and Religous Studies.
11 yrs ago, 7 mos ago - Thursday 4/23/09 - 6:02:41 PM EST (GMT-5)
On Wednesday 4/22/09 - 2:14:28 PM Proserpine wrote:
No. Just because something flinches away from a harmful stimulus does not mean that it feels the effect the harmful stimulus has on it.


Then why is it 'flinching away'?
11 yrs ago, 7 mos ago - Thursday 4/23/09 - 6:23:41 PM EST (GMT-5)
On Wednesday 4/22/09 - 2:14:28 PM Proserpine wrote:
No. Just because something flinches away from a harmful stimulus does not mean that it feels the effect the harmful stimulus has on it.
On Thursday 4/23/09 - 6:02:41 PM catchall wrote:
Then why is it 'flinching away'?

A reflex.
Just like if someone puts a cigarette to your arm, you'll jump away from it before you feel the burn.
11 yrs ago, 7 mos ago - Thursday 4/23/09 - 6:29:38 PM EST (GMT-5)
I don't believe they think "Oh poo, this hurts!", but a cockroach will avoid my hot stove.
It has nothing to do with pain as we know it; it's simply evolution:
Roaches that walked straight into something that could trigger a "pain" signal wouldn't live to reproduce.
11 yrs ago, 7 mos ago - Thursday 4/23/09 - 6:31:00 PM EST (GMT-5)
Invertebrates have a very limited nervous system, and do not release stress hormones when a harmful stimulus is introduced.

They need not learn from pain or pleasure in order to survive and reproduce, so there's no evolutionary pressure for them to develop a more sophisticated nervous system.
11 yrs ago, 7 mos ago - Thursday 4/23/09 - 6:32:24 PM EST (GMT-5)
On Thursday 4/23/09 - 6:23:41 PM Proserpine wrote:
A reflex. Just like if someone puts a cigarette to your arm, you'll jump away from it before you feel the burn.


The principle is sound, although I'm not sure the example necessarily supports it as reflexes (such as a cigarette on the arm) still elicits real pain (whether the pain properly follows, rather than being a part of, the reflex is debatable). I think the important point is that we cannot claim that flinching away from a damaging (therefore painful) stimulus is an indication that the organism in question actually *feels* the pain.
11 yrs ago, 7 mos ago - Thursday 4/23/09 - 6:35:34 PM EST (GMT-5)
Damn swear filter; it's ridiculous! ""Oh poo, this hurts!". Right. I meant to say "Sh*t", which is a word you can hear on the radio or the TV, read on the Net or whatever.
Even my 6yo knows that word, picked it up at school, I guess, so substituting "poo" doesn't protect the young ones. And who are the young ones on YT?
Those under 18?
I bet they already know this word, and a few more.
11 yrs ago, 7 mos ago - Thursday 4/23/09 - 6:44:23 PM EST (GMT-5)
Sander, you can't say sh*t on American TV or radio.

Buddy's just using the FCC laws.
11 yrs ago, 7 mos ago - Thursday 4/23/09 - 6:44:45 PM EST (GMT-5)
On Thursday 4/23/09 - 6:31:00 PM Proserpine wrote:
Invertebrates have a very limited nervous system, and do not release stress hormones when a harmful stimulus is introduced. They need not learn from pain or pleasure in order to survive and reproduce, so there's no evolutionary pressure for them to develop a more sophisticated nervous system.


I beg to differ. How can you survive if you're too dumb to sense danger?
And roaches are no einsteins; if you cut one's head off it will go on with its usual roach business until it starves to death because its head is missing.
11 yrs ago, 7 mos ago - Thursday 4/23/09 - 6:50:17 PM EST (GMT-5)
On Thursday 4/23/09 - 6:44:23 PM Proserpine wrote:
Sander, you can't say sh*t on American TV or radio.


I like you people, but you have some rather weird rules over there...

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