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12,760 hits 2.7 (3 votes) Share Favorite | Flag 5 mos ago by Kungfullama

Who knows more about racism?


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4 months ago - Friday 3/28/14 - 1:21:21 AM EST (GMT-5)
Clarence Thomas knows about sexual harrisment
4 months ago - Friday 3/28/14 - 1:39:32 AM EST (GMT-5)
The only thing I know for sure is that Clarence Thomas knows more from a firsthand standpoint about the effects of racism.

Tim Wise might know a lot from an academic standpoint and from secondhand sources...but I don't know if it's "more" or not. You'd have to compare it with Clarence Thomas' academic knowledge of racism and somehow determine which person is more knowledgeable on that level. I don't know enough about their academic backgrounds.
4 months ago - Friday 3/28/14 - 4:26:18 AM EST (GMT-5)
I'd say Thomas probably has experienced more racism, but that's only one measure of "knowing" it. I find most of his public comments related to race to be pretty out of touch, at least w/ what I believe. He strikes me as dismissive of race as an ongoing, significant social issue, and he reminds me of one who has overcome something himself and therefore thinks everyone else should have, too.

An academic who studies racism is likely to know more objective, statistical info about it. How you value that next to personal experience is anyone's guess. I'm going w/ Wise as the more knowledgeable, but just like racial issues are complicated by differing perspectives, so, too, is the answer to this question.
4 months ago - Friday 3/28/14 - 10:28:21 AM EST (GMT-5)
I'd never heard of Tim Wise, so I went out and read some of his website.

Pseudo-intellectual is a compliment.
4 months ago - Friday 3/28/14 - 10:36:38 AM EST (GMT-5)
dacash, your previous comments on the state of race and racism today remind me very much of what Justice Thomas has said on those subjects.

Additionally, dismissing someone w/ whom you would disagree as a "pseudo-intellectual" rather than addressing the content of his work is poor form.
4 months ago - Friday 3/28/14 - 10:37:12 AM EST (GMT-5)
On Friday 3/28/14 - 4:26:18 AM IRLIteach wrote:
I'd say Thomas probably has experienced more racism, but that's only one measure of "knowing" it. I find most of his public comments related to race to be pretty out of touch, at least w/ what I believe. He strikes me as dismissive of race as an ongoing, significant social issue, and he reminds me of one who has overcome something himself and therefore thinks everyone else should have, too.


Not sure that I'd say that Thomas is 'out of touch' because he has different opinions about race than you. Perhaps Thomas just recognizes that many are using their minority race status as an excuse for underperformance or failure, and that many programs that are intended to help minorities end up hurting more than helping.
4 months ago - Friday 3/28/14 - 10:52:26 AM EST (GMT-5)
On Friday 3/28/14 - 10:37:12 AM CowDung wrote:
Not sure that I'd say that Thomas is 'out of touch' because he has different opinions about race than you. Perhaps Thomas just recognizes that many are using their minority race status as an excuse for underperformance or failure, and that many programs that are intended to help minorities end up hurting more than helping.

I think that by phrasing it as "I find," and "at least w/ what I believe" covers the context within which I consider him to be out of touch. You should be quite sure that within the context of what I believe, Thomas seems out of touch. You may disagree w/ my opinion, but there should be no disagreement that it is indeed my opinion.

"Just recognizes that many *ARE*"? Yes, that is his opinion and yours. I disagree, and think it represents being out of touch w/ reality.
4 months ago - Friday 3/28/14 - 11:27:26 AM EST (GMT-5)
On Friday 3/28/14 - 10:36:38 AM IRLIteach wrote:
Additionally, dismissing someone w/ whom you would disagree as a "pseudo-intellectual" rather than addressing the content of his work is poor form.

Addressing the words of a pseudo-intellectual is like howling at the moon. It is not a dismissal to avoid real discussion, it is an invitation to avoid tomfoolery and have a real discussion.

I think CD has you pegged on this. In thinking on our discussion about culture, your view is egocentric: somehow we are responsible for the state of all other cultures. I don't doubt your sincerity in regards to cultural interactions to do the right thing. But I've seen too many people with that view go rushing in to "help" where their help is not wanted or needed. Other cultures don't need "fixing" by us.
4 months ago - Friday 3/28/14 - 12:18:57 PM EST (GMT-5)
If you're talking to someone who agrees w/ Wise, whom you had to look up just now to know who he is (as did I), beginning and ending w/
"pseudo-intellectual" is just empty name-calling. You don't get to decide what's beneath discussion then carry on w/ the discussion you want to have w/o the other person's input.

I think you and CD are of roughly the same opinion here, so your belief that he has me "pegged" is not surprising. It shouldn't come as any surprise to you that where people disagree strongly, it's a pretty provocative thing to claim one has the other "pegged." it reads like "Your opinion is wrong and you are so simple and transparent." There's really no explaining or condescending your way out of that impression. There's just accepting that it sounds like that and not doing it again.
4 months ago - Friday 3/28/14 - 12:25:14 PM EST (GMT-5)
On Friday 3/28/14 - 11:27:26 AM dacash wrote:
your view is egocentric...

Yeah, see, not a damn bit of that sounds like what I think and believe, nor what I know about myself. You can't start w/ something like that and expect me to hear a f'ing thing you say afterward. You're poisoning the well.
4 months ago - Friday 3/28/14 - 12:29:41 PM EST (GMT-5)
I find it at least a little egocentric for a white guy to claim that he's more 'in touch' with issues of race than a black guy...
4 months ago - Friday 3/28/14 - 12:40:01 PM EST (GMT-5)
My race and Thomas' race have nothing to do w/ it. There is agreement on these issues across racial lines, and there is disagreement on these issues *within* racial groups.
4 months ago - Friday 3/28/14 - 1:29:15 PM EST (GMT-5)
On Friday 3/28/14 - 12:29:41 PM CowDung wrote:
I find it at least a little egocentric for a white guy to claim that he's more 'in touch' with issues of race than a black guy...

Wait for it...
On Friday 3/28/14 - 10:37:12 AM CowDung wrote:
Perhaps Thomas just recognizes that many are using their minority race status as an excuse for underperformance or failure

Do these "many" acknowledge that that is what they are doing? B/c if they instead tell you that there are legitimate societal factors making their success prohibitive, you're identifying yourself as egotistical to think otherwise.
4 months ago - Friday 3/28/14 - 1:38:57 PM EST (GMT-5)
On Friday 3/28/14 - 12:18:57 PM IRLIteach wrote:
You don't get to decide what's beneath discussion then carry on w/ the discussion you want to have w/o the other person's input.

I get to decide what I'm willing to discuss. End of discussion.

I brought up our other discussion on culture, I'm not just out of the blue saying "hey, you're like this..." I'm not even saying it would be surprising or unusual: I see it a lot in people and don't think any less of them for it. You *should* react based on experience. But as a leader on short term missions, I see your view, as I've noted a very well meaning view, turn to disaster when the person travels outside their culture.


4 months ago - Friday 3/28/14 - 1:39:16 PM EST (GMT-5)
And that CD has arrived at a similar opinion also does not surprise me, nor do I feel the need to apologize for noting it. Perhaps you might note that in 2 separate discussions, 2 separate people have reached similar conclusions about a flaw in how you're approaching an issue.
4 months ago - Friday 3/28/14 - 1:49:13 PM EST (GMT-5)
Starting by dismissing Wise is your right. It prevents this from being a discussion I'll engage in w/ you.

I don't think you represent our discussion about culture accurately at all, so what you then claim to "see" in me is going to be even less accurate, and there's no hope in continuing that direction.

That you and cd are of one mind on an issue where I vehemently disagree is what it is. That you think w/in that that your assumptions about me personally will be well received is idiotic.
4 months ago - Friday 3/28/14 - 2:18:23 PM EST (GMT-5)
On Friday IRLIteach wrote:
Do these "many" acknowledge that that is what they are doing? B/c if they instead tell you that there are legitimate societal factors making their success prohibitive, you're identifying yourself as egotistical to think otherwise.


One doesn't have to acknowledge what they are doing in order to be doing it. I'm not the first to make the claim as I have heard people of color making the observation, urging 'their people' to not do it.

I don't think that anyone denies that societal factors can impede the path to success for people of color. The issue is how one deals with those 'legitimate societal factors'. They can either give up and place the blame on those factors, or they can continue working to overcome those factors much like Thomas and many other successful black people have.
4 months ago - Friday 3/28/14 - 2:23:44 PM EST (GMT-5)
"I have heard people of color making the observation, urging 'their people' to not do it."
Of course, and if you take their claims to be the authoritative answer on such issues, you're dismissing others' answers.

"They can either give up and place the blame on those factors, or they can continue working"
Only two choices, and they're as simple as that? I'd most definitely categorize that as "out of touch."
4 months ago - Friday 3/28/14 - 2:53:51 PM EST (GMT-5)
Why shouldn't I take the word of a successful black person as anything less than authoritative? They have achieved success and are sharing their advice for those that are facing the same struggles.
4 months ago - Friday 3/28/14 - 3:03:09 PM EST (GMT-5)
On Friday 3/28/14 - 2:53:51 PM CowDung wrote:
Why shouldn't I take the word of a successful black person whose opinion I'm already predisposed to agree with as anything less than authoritative?

FIFY
On Friday 3/28/14 - 2:53:51 PM CowDung wrote:
They have achieved success and are sharing their advice for those that are facing the same struggles.

It's not "advice" when you don't first demonstrate that you care or have a clue why others are struggling. Sharing your own success story in that situation is just lording it over others.
4 months ago - Friday 3/28/14 - 3:08:33 PM EST (GMT-5)
Considering that they themselves had faced the same struggles, I have no reason to think that they don't care or have no clue why others are struggling.

...and it's a bit deeper than just sharing their own success story. They identify what they see as problems in black society that are keeping people from succeeding, and urging people to choose a better path. Bill Cosby in particular has been quite vocal in that regard.

4 months ago - Friday 3/28/14 - 3:14:48 PM EST (GMT-5)
Where's your list of all the Black people you listen to who speak up about ongoing racial disadvantages, cd?
4 months ago - Friday 3/28/14 - 3:28:56 PM EST (GMT-5)
Am I supposed to have a list?
4 months ago - Friday 3/28/14 - 3:40:01 PM EST (GMT-5)
To demonstrate that you're not just picking and choosing Black people whose views you agree with and which allow you to take the easiest path of doing nothing, yes.
4 months ago - Friday 3/28/14 - 3:44:03 PM EST (GMT-5)
Considering that Thomas routinely gets the 'Uncle Tom', 'sell out' and 'traitor to his race' treatment, it's likely that he's well aware of his ongoing racial disadvantage.

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