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10,438 hits 3.0 (1 vote) Share Favorite | Flag 3 years ago by CowDung

Should athletes be required to stand for the National Anthem while playing for their national team?


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3 yrs ago, 10 mos ago - Friday 9/30/16 - 9:21:20 PM EST (GMT-5)
On Friday 9/30/16 - 10:12:37 AM CowDung wrote:
Considering that it was war that brought our country into existence, I don't think that it is inappropriate for it to be part of the national anthem.
On Friday 9/30/16 - 11:53:31 AM catchall wrote:
Part? it's the entire anthem.

Nah, just the verse we sing. Wait'll you see Verse 3 (hint: slavery).

Also, it's dumb to say that the anthem is appropriately bellicose because our country exists because of a war. First of all, that's true for most countries, but not all of them have such warlike anthems (La Marseillaise is probably the worst next to ours, funny enough). Secondly, if you're going to take that tack, it isn't even about the right war.
3 yrs ago, 10 mos ago - Friday 9/30/16 - 9:56:39 PM EST (GMT-5)
I didn't say it was mandatory to include war in the anthem, just that one shouldn't object to war being mentioned in the anthem.
3 yrs ago, 10 mos ago - Friday 9/30/16 - 11:36:17 PM EST (GMT-5)
On Friday 9/30/16 - 9:56:39 PM CowDung wrote:
I didn't say it was mandatory to include war in the anthem, just that one shouldn't object to war being mentioned in the anthem.


Why not?
3 yrs ago, 10 mos ago - Saturday 10/1/16 - 12:18:52 AM EST (GMT-5)
Maybe we just have a disagreement on what an anthem should be about.

If you had to start from scratch, and had four ballad stanzas to present your national identity to the world, how many lines would be taken up by military victories?
3 yrs ago, 10 mos ago - Saturday 10/1/16 - 8:49:32 AM EST (GMT-5)
Good grief, no.

Our national anthem is offensive as f*ck to Scottish people and there is absolutely no way they should be expected to stand for and sing along to a song that glorifies the systemic subjugation of their culture.
3 yrs ago, 10 mos ago - Saturday 10/1/16 - 9:09:27 AM EST (GMT-5)
On Saturday 10/1/16 - 12:18:52 AM birdsong4j wrote:
Maybe we just have a disagreement on what an anthem should be about. If you had to start from scratch, and had four ballad stanzas to present your national identity to the world, how many lines would be taken up by military victories?


All of them. We should commission a new anthem after every major military victory. Let's make America great again!
3 yrs ago, 10 mos ago - Saturday 10/1/16 - 3:22:03 PM EST (GMT-5)
On Saturday 10/1/16 - 12:18:52 AM birdsong4j wrote:
Maybe we just have a disagreement on what an anthem should be about. If you had to start from scratch, and had four ballad stanzas to present your national identity to the world, how many lines would be taken up by military victories?
On Saturday 10/1/16 - 9:09:27 AM CowDung wrote:
All of them. We should commission a new anthem after every major military victory. Let's make America great again!

You know...I was asking a serious question that I thought would have an interesting answer.
You seem fine with our anthem being mostly about war; some of us are not. I'm just asking - don't we have a whole lot of stuff to be proud of besides our military? Shouldn't that stuff be what we telegraph to the world instead? Or at least in addition to?
3 yrs ago, 10 mos ago - Saturday 10/1/16 - 8:26:51 PM EST (GMT-5)
I think it does a disservice to those who have fought in service to our country to exclude any mention of war in our Anthem. It is a good reminder that freedom isn't free...
3 yrs ago, 10 mos ago - Saturday 10/1/16 - 11:15:45 PM EST (GMT-5)
Excluding all mention of war? Sure. But seriously, take another look at the first verse of ours (aka the one we sing). It's 100% about two things: 1. the flag, 2. war stuff. That is it.
Musically, it's also difficult to pitch in a key where most average people can sing it (octave +5 range), and becomes unbelievably showboaty for a soloist unless they stick very strictly to the tune as written.

It's off-topic slightly for the thread, but tbh, "America the Beautiful" is a better candidate for a national anthem in virtually every single measurable way.
3 yrs ago, 10 mos ago - Sunday 10/2/16 - 7:55:32 AM EST (GMT-5)
I think the showboaty part of the song is perfect. That's America in a nutshell
3 yrs ago, 10 mos ago - Sunday 10/2/16 - 9:39:06 AM EST (GMT-5)
On Saturday 10/1/16 - 11:15:45 PM birdsong4j wrote:
Excluding all mention of war? Sure. But seriously, take another look at the first verse of ours (aka the one we sing). It's 100% about two things: 1. the flag, 2. war stuff. That is it. Musically, it's also difficult to pitch in a key where most average people can sing it (octave +5 range), and becomes unbelievably showboaty for a soloist unless they stick very strictly to the tune as written. It's off-topic slightly for the thread, but tbh, "America the Beautiful" is a better candidate for a national anthem in virtually every single measurable way.


I think it's a beautiful sentiment that reminds us that the US will endure, no matter what challenges we face as a nation...
3 yrs ago, 10 mos ago - Sunday 10/2/16 - 9:39:25 AM EST (GMT-5)
On Sunday 10/2/16 - 7:55:32 AM snarf wrote:
I think the showboaty part of the song is perfect. That's America in a nutshell


Very true.
3 yrs ago, 10 mos ago - Monday 10/3/16 - 1:29:19 AM EST (GMT-5)
On Sunday 10/2/16 - 7:55:32 AM snarf wrote:
I think the showboaty part of the song is perfect. That's America in a nutshell

Well, some guy's nuts in a nutshell, maybe
3 yrs ago, 10 mos ago - Monday 10/3/16 - 12:04:10 PM EST (GMT-5)
That's up to each individual country. I'd prefer the US not have such an ironic rule.
3 yrs ago, 10 mos ago - Monday 10/3/16 - 2:47:57 PM EST (GMT-5)
On Friday 9/30/16 - 10:12:37 AM CowDung wrote:
The premise of the question is to explore the potential conflict between being proud enough of one's country to represent it on the sports field, but not being proud enough of one's country to stand for the Anthem.


This is actually an interesting question. But why do you assume that not standing for the Anthem means someone is not proud of their country?

As IRL points out, it is pretty ironic to sing a song about "home of the free" while not having simple freedom to choose whether one stands or sits.
3 yrs ago, 10 mos ago - Monday 10/3/16 - 2:51:42 PM EST (GMT-5)
On Friday 9/30/16 - 10:12:37 AM CowDung wrote:
The premise of the question is to explore the potential conflict between being proud enough of one's country to represent it on the sports field, but not being proud enough of one's country to stand for the Anthem.
On Monday 10/3/16 - 2:47:57 PM catchall wrote:
This is actually an interesting question. But why do you assume that not standing for the Anthem means someone is not proud of their country?


I guess that's the way I interpret what has been stated as the reason for choosing to not stand.

"I am not going to stand up and show pride in a flag for a country that oppresses black people and people of color," he [Kaepernick] told NFL Media following the exhibition football game.
3 yrs ago, 10 mos ago - Monday 10/3/16 - 3:11:05 PM EST (GMT-5)
Sometimes being proud and patriotic means pointing out the areas where your country can (and should) do better.
3 yrs ago, 10 mos ago - Monday 10/3/16 - 3:21:57 PM EST (GMT-5)
On Monday 10/3/16 - 3:11:05 PM birdsong4j wrote:
Sometimes being proud and patriotic means pointing out the areas where your country can (and should) do better.


Perhaps, but if one purposely avoids showing pride is it not reasonable to take that as not being proud?
3 yrs ago, 10 mos ago - Monday 10/3/16 - 3:28:09 PM EST (GMT-5)
...and I think it's a stretch to say that someone is showing pride in one's country by pointing out the things the country should be doing better. It seems more likely that rather than being proud, the pride would be restored if/when those things are made better.
3 yrs ago, 10 mos ago - Monday 10/3/16 - 5:22:20 PM EST (GMT-5)
I think it's possible to point out areas that are problematic while still being proud. Our country is multifaceted and just as war does not define the US (I guess there are good arguments against that, maybe shouldn't define the US) and perhaps should not be quite so prominently featured in the anthem, neither do police shootings define our country. Pointing out the problem doesn't mean you are not proud of your country.

Though I agree if we worked together to solve/improve it that should make us all feel a bit prouder.
3 yrs ago, 10 mos ago - Monday 10/3/16 - 6:00:07 PM EST (GMT-5)
...but his statement was about 'not standing up and showing pride'. To me, that means that he isn't proud.
3 yrs ago, 9 mos ago - Thursday 10/6/16 - 11:22:30 AM EST (GMT-5)
On Monday 10/3/16 - 3:21:57 PM CowDung wrote:
Perhaps, but if one purposely avoids showing pride is it not reasonable to take that as not being proud?

If you're putting restrictions on when and where and how someone must show pride, sure.
3 yrs ago, 9 mos ago - Thursday 10/6/16 - 11:25:50 AM EST (GMT-5)
On Monday 10/3/16 - 6:00:07 PM CowDung wrote:
...but his statement was about 'not standing up and showing pride'. To me, that means that he isn't proud.

Maybe you should focus more on the problems he wants addressed than on reading his mind.

We're getting away from the condition of "national team," too, when we're talking about Kaepernick. That's fine, but I want it noted for whenever cd does his usual bs bait-and-switch twist.
3 yrs ago, 9 mos ago - Thursday 10/6/16 - 11:44:02 AM EST (GMT-5)
Since Kaepernick seems to have started the 'not standing for the Anthem' thing, I figured it was appropriate to use his statements to explain what is behind the 'not standing' movement.

3 yrs ago, 9 mos ago - Thursday 10/6/16 - 11:45:09 AM EST (GMT-5)
Particularly when someone challenges the idea that not standing for the Anthem is actually a show of pride rather than a demonstration of not being proud of one's country.

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