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9,795 hits 4.0 (1 vote) Share Favorite | Flag 8 years ago by Raisinman

Should we (the US) be engaging in free trade with China?


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8 yrs ago - Tuesday 10/25/11 - 12:18:24 PM EST (GMT-5)
Consider these facts...

The United States has lost an average of 50,000 manufacturing jobs per month since China joined the World Trade Organization in 2001.

The Communist Party is in complete control of China and while we may regard China as a "frenemy", they really do believe that they will totally defeat us someday.

Our trade relationship with China has enabled the largest communist economy in the world to go from third world status to superpower status.

China has been able to become a true global military superpower.

U.S. businesses have a very hard time competing with foreign businesses that are deeply subsidized by their own national governments.

China has a very strict "one child policy" which should be absolutely abhorrent to all Americans.
8 yrs ago - Tuesday 10/25/11 - 12:21:19 PM EST (GMT-5)
Our trade deficit with China has enabled them to accumulate nearly a trillion dollars of our debt. This gives them tremendous leverage over us and is a very serious threat to our economy and to our national security.

Our unfair trade agreements have put American workers in direct competition for jobs with the cheapest labor on the globe.

Even the construction of many of our roads and bridges is being outsourced to China.

All over the globe, workers toil in nightmarish conditions for slave labor pay just so that Americans can feed their addiction for cheap foreign products.

nations such as China are a complete and total environmental nightmare at this point.
8 yrs ago - Tuesday 10/25/11 - 12:23:30 PM EST (GMT-5)
Today, a huge percentage of the products we buy are made outside the United States far from the watchful eyes of our regulatory agencies. Over the past couple of years, there has been headline after headline about dangerous products made in China.

By paying slave labor wages to workers overseas, the big corporations are becoming very wealthy. At the same time, that means that there are much fewer jobs for average working class Americans, and wages for the jobs that remain are pushed down because of increased competition for jobs.

Today, the United States spends about 4 dollars on goods and services from China for every one dollar that China spends on goods and services from the United States.

http://theeconomiccollapseblog.com/...
8 yrs ago - Tuesday 10/25/11 - 12:28:47 PM EST (GMT-5)
Or maybe you think that restricting free trade agreements with China will keep their people impoverished longer, and that its not fair that the average American enjoys a higher standard of living than the average Chinese.

But personally, I think that our trade policies should strive to increase the prosperity of the average working class American - not the multi-national corporations and certainly not the Chinese.
8 yrs ago - Tuesday 10/25/11 - 3:40:30 PM EST (GMT-5)
what we need to do is send sleepers in to china to somehow incite their impoverished peoples to rise up in revolt
8 yrs ago - Tuesday 10/25/11 - 4:07:08 PM EST (GMT-5)
How can we change now? China has over 900 billion in US Treasury securities and we are borrowing more everyday.
8 yrs ago - Wednesday 10/26/11 - 12:40:22 PM EST (GMT-5)
Why don't you just invade them? That's how you seem to solve all your other problems.
8 yrs ago - Wednesday 10/26/11 - 1:12:40 PM EST (GMT-5)
trade, yes.
Free trade, no.

What the f*ck is free trade anyway? It doesn't work.
Canadians still pay thousands of dollars more for American cars, even after money conversion and before tax.

It's a joke.
8 yrs ago - Wednesday 10/26/11 - 3:41:27 PM EST (GMT-5)
What Abzurd said. Trade agreements need to be mutually beneficial for all parties involved. Free trade tends to only be good for the power players, but not for the average person.
8 yrs ago - Wednesday 10/26/11 - 5:37:47 PM EST (GMT-5)
On Tuesday 10/25/11 - 12:28:47 PM Raisinman wrote:
Or maybe you think that restricting free trade agreements with China will keep their people impoverished longer, and that its not fair that the average American enjoys a higher standard of living than the average Chinese

The US needs to help their people first. If America can no longer help themselves, then how can they take care of everyone else like people expect them to?
8 yrs ago - Monday 10/31/11 - 11:22:58 AM EST (GMT-5)
The legitimate government of China doesn't even control any of China outside of one island.
8 yrs ago - Wednesday 11/2/11 - 7:46:50 PM EST (GMT-5)
On Wednesday 10/26/11 - 12:40:22 PM Xifihas wrote:
Why don't you just invade them? That's how you seem to solve all your other problems.

You have a point, because all Americans believe in invading a nation. That's what we do. All of us. Not a single individual thinker in this country. No, sir. Just a bunch of drones who invade countries.
8 yrs ago - Wednesday 11/2/11 - 7:50:12 PM EST (GMT-5)
You don't deal with a problem by ignoring it.

The reason China is on the rise is that it's currently developing a lot of basic production industry, using cheap labor.

They can do that more cheaply than you, and you are benefiting from cheaper products. But they are getting richer, increasing the demand for luxury goods that you are able to provide to them.

As they get richer, a middle class starts to form, and historically speaking, they are unlikely to be satisfied with the current government model for long.

Forbidding companies from moving their operations to profitable locations only makes them lose out to companies in countries that are not forbidden from moving to the most profitable place. It's a short term stopgap that winds up costing more in the long run.
8 yrs ago - Wednesday 11/2/11 - 8:06:02 PM EST (GMT-5)
On Tuesday 10/25/11 - 3:40:30 PM Wreshy wrote:
what we need to do is send sleepers in to china to somehow incite their impoverished peoples to rise up in revolt


Except the Chinese have enjoyed a rise in living standards since the 70's.

While the CCP is oppressive, the majority are unlikely to rise up anytime soon as long as people see an increase in material wealth and general living standards.
8 yrs ago - Wednesday 11/2/11 - 8:18:37 PM EST (GMT-5)
On Tuesday 10/25/11 - 12:18:24 PM Raisinman wrote:
China has been able to become a true global military superpower.


This is not true.

China are a regional power and look likely to take over US supremacy in the Asia Pacific region but they are a long way off becoming a global superpower.

They are a few hundred ICBMs and/or a significant blue water navy away from reaching global superpower status.

(China has ICBM's but I think they only have like 12 or something)
8 yrs ago - Wednesday 11/2/11 - 9:06:52 PM EST (GMT-5)
On Monday 10/31/11 - 11:22:58 AM anthraxrocks wrote:
The legitimate government of China doesn't even control any of China outside of one island.


Please, the Nationalists were as much a joke as far as human rights were concerned as the Maoists.

Legitimate my ass; they deserved to be overthrown. It's simply a shame that those who did overthrow them were just as terrible.
8 yrs ago - Thursday 11/3/11 - 1:57:49 PM EST (GMT-5)
On Tuesday 10/25/11 - 12:18:24 PM Raisinman wrote:
China has been able to become a true global military superpower.
On Wednesday 11/2/11 - 8:18:37 PM newtownninja wrote:
This is not true. China are a regional power and look likely to take over US supremacy in the Asia Pacific region but they are a long way off becoming a global superpower.


Though not a show of force, here's a great example of China's status as a global military power:

Chinese Navy brings medical aid to Jamaica

Jamaica is about as far from China as one can possibly get...
8 yrs ago - Thursday 11/3/11 - 2:02:18 PM EST (GMT-5)
On Wednesday 11/2/11 - 7:50:12 PM AndresH wrote:
It's a short term stopgap that winds up costing more in the long run.

Right...and how long is the "short term"? Years? Decades? Generations? How far down is our middle class going to drop before the new equilibrium is reached? How long is the Chinese government going to allow the exploitation of its workers and the environment, making fair, safe competition practically impossible?

How much debt are we going to accumulate before we cease to have a trade deficit?
8 yrs ago - Thursday 11/3/11 - 2:35:38 PM EST (GMT-5)
Short term is measured in ever shorter terms (no pun intended)

Companies are experts at getting around these sorts of laws that try to prevent them from getting the upper hand against their competition.

If a German company can produce cars in Chinese factories, or in a factory in India using Chinese made parts, while an American company has to make cars in America, using American parts, how long do you think the American company can keep going, competing against similar quality-cars being made at maybe half the price?

You fix this by focusing your energies on enlarging the sectors that cheap labor countries like India and China can't compete with you in as easily. The industries that demand a large, skilled, educated workforce, not by sticking your fingers in your ears going 'lalalalalala!' and hoping you can just keep doing the same stuff you were doing 80 years ago.
8 yrs ago - Thursday 11/3/11 - 2:37:11 PM EST (GMT-5)
Also, by refusing to buy cheap stuff from China now, you are hobbling the growth of their middle class, which could become a lucrative market for the industries where you are better than they are. As well as prompting their government to likewise refuse you access to that growing market.
8 yrs ago - Thursday 11/3/11 - 2:55:38 PM EST (GMT-5)
And whose going to keep buying cars in America when the middle class here continues to deteriorate as manufacturing rapidly leaves the country?

The problem with the free trade argument is that is focuses solely on supply-side economics, and completely ignores demand. If we simply accept that its cheaper to manufacture goods in the developing world and do nothing to provide an incentive to keep those manufacturers here longer while our population adjusts to the change, then we'll end up with a very high rate of unemployment as jobs leave faster than the workforce can be retrained.
8 yrs ago - Thursday 11/3/11 - 2:56:00 PM EST (GMT-5)
And I'm not talking about doing the same stuff we were doing 80 years ago btw, I'm talking about doing the stuff we were doing 10 years ago.

Allow me to reiterate one of the key points from the article:
"The United States has lost an average of 50,000 manufacturing jobs per month since China joined the World Trade Organization in 2001."
8 yrs ago - Thursday 11/3/11 - 3:12:20 PM EST (GMT-5)
Also, I should point out that, contrary to popular belief (especially of politicians and free-trade advocates), the majority of Americans are NOT engineers. Nor are they suited to work in finance. Most Americans can't develop advanced software or pharmaceuticals.

It would be nice if this were a country of geniuses, but it's simply not possible for a mostly blue-collar workforce to suddenly work in fields that demand a much higher level of technical education.
8 yrs ago - Thursday 11/3/11 - 3:29:34 PM EST (GMT-5)
Well then, maybe you should improve your education system.

You can't insist on top of the line pay, if you've got third world capabilities. Your geographical location can help you skate by for a while, but if someone else does what you do best as well or better, for as much or less money, then you have a problem that can't be fixed by trying to force buyers and producers to act like this isn't the basic problem you are facing.
8 yrs ago - Thursday 11/3/11 - 3:34:48 PM EST (GMT-5)
America has a problem in that it's too divided internally. The gap between the rich and the poor is larger than in any other supposedly post-industrialized state.

The rich people in America don't seem to have caught on that by strictly structuring their system into haves and have-nots, they have accidentally pushed the lower rungs of the own society below the line where they no longer have anything particular to offer beyond the lowest rungs of other less developed, but less brutally stratified societies.

If a poor worker in Mexico has exactly the same capabilities as a poor worker in Detroit, then why on earth should anyone hire the Detroit worker over the Mexican worker, for more money even?

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