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12,341 hits 4.0 (3 votes) Share Favorite | Flag 8 years ago by imagination

If an Occupy Protest was organised in your area, would you attend?


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8 yrs ago, 11 mos ago - Tuesday 10/11/11 - 12:59:01 PM EST (GMT-5)
It is in it's starting stages, pretty chaotic. However it is clear that the lack of jobs and social equity resonates strongly with a mix of people. The campers we spoke with did not blame the police at all, indeed the police as people support them. They too have had job cuts and are dis-satisfied with the trickle down economy.
8 yrs ago, 11 mos ago - Tuesday 10/11/11 - 1:03:55 PM EST (GMT-5)
i'm not big on being involved in big things with crowds
i'd be likely to go have a look, but unlikely to actually get involved
8 yrs ago, 11 mos ago - Tuesday 10/11/11 - 1:32:53 PM EST (GMT-5)
I'm feeling this thing, so I decided I'm going.
8 yrs ago, 11 mos ago - Tuesday 10/11/11 - 1:43:53 PM EST (GMT-5)
is there one in montreal? or are you going to new york?
8 yrs ago, 11 mos ago - Tuesday 10/11/11 - 1:50:50 PM EST (GMT-5)
8 yrs ago, 11 mos ago - Tuesday 10/11/11 - 4:07:44 PM EST (GMT-5)
On Tuesday 10/11/11 - 9:24:44 AM le_berger wrote:
People are fetching for more democracy, nothing that vague about it rly.


Did you read what I said about meaningless buzzwords?
8 yrs ago, 11 mos ago - Tuesday 10/11/11 - 4:09:27 PM EST (GMT-5)
On Tuesday 10/11/11 - 9:24:44 AM le_berger wrote:
People are fetching for more democracy, nothing that vague about it rly.
On Tuesday 10/11/11 - 4:07:44 PM griffin_wf wrote:
Did you read what I said about meaningless buzzwords?


Democracy being one of those?
8 yrs ago, 11 mos ago - Tuesday 10/11/11 - 4:14:33 PM EST (GMT-5)
Yes, along with freedom, peace, security and family values.

You can throw them into any conversation, regardless of whether you have attached any meaning or context to them, and no one will disagree with them because after all, who doesn't like those things
8 yrs ago, 11 mos ago - Tuesday 10/11/11 - 4:20:58 PM EST (GMT-5)
just because some words are commonly abused as to be rendered meaningless in your general civil discourse doesn't mean the words don't still have a definition and meaning

I mean, just because nobody in America knows what socialism is, does that mean we shouldn't talk about it or use the word anymore? when it's used accurately and still criticized, you aren't fixing the problem, you are the problem
8 yrs ago, 11 mos ago - Tuesday 10/11/11 - 4:21:32 PM EST (GMT-5)
On Tuesday 10/11/11 - 9:24:44 AM le_berger wrote:
People are fetching for more democracy, nothing that vague about it rly.
On Tuesday 10/11/11 - 4:07:44 PM griffin_wf wrote:
Did you read what I said about meaningless buzzwords?
On Tuesday 10/11/11 - 4:09:27 PM le_berger wrote:
Democracy being one of those?

Yea I think the phrase "more democracy" is incredibly vague...what exactly should be done to increase the amount of democracy that we have? (Also, when did democracy become quantifiable?)
8 yrs ago, 11 mos ago - Tuesday 10/11/11 - 4:22:08 PM EST (GMT-5)
Fair enough, those are pretty vague terms in popular perception. But when people march in the streets and scream at the top of their lungs, it's not more just about an idea they like, it's about demanding it.

Democracy is having a say in the way you shape up the world, right now the whole system is skewed so that only very few have a say, and voting every 4 yrs clearly isn't enough. How do you demand democracy other than by voicing out that there's a lack of it?

Moreover, those who bitch about the message and demands being too vague kinda miss the point. We already have plenty of militant organizations going after their own targets and trying to change the world in this or that fashion, but see where that gets us? Apart from actual popular uprising, not much can shake the foundations of the whole system.

I have a sh*tload more to say, but time to prepare supper.
8 yrs ago, 11 mos ago - Tuesday 10/11/11 - 4:23:14 PM EST (GMT-5)
we gained exactly 2/5ths of democracy with the 13th amendment, for example
8 yrs ago, 11 mos ago - Tuesday 10/11/11 - 4:23:20 PM EST (GMT-5)
On Tuesday 10/11/11 - 4:21:32 PM Raisinman wrote:
(Also, when did democracy become quantifiable?)


There are markers, if you wanna know how much democracy there is in a society, look up popular opinion and public policy, if those align well there you have it.

Let me give you a hint, they don't.
8 yrs ago, 11 mos ago - Tuesday 10/11/11 - 4:39:30 PM EST (GMT-5)
"Democracy is having a say in the way you shape up the world, right now the whole system is skewed so that only very few have a say, and voting every 4 yrs clearly isn't enough. How do you demand democracy other than by voicing out that there's a lack of it? "

How about by not being so apathetic towards politics? Of all the world's democracies (at least those presented on the lists that I've found), the US has the lowest voter turnout rate ranging between 38%-48% of eligible voters.

Furthermore, if enough people in this country were truly interested in democracy, we could impose a system of direct democracy where the people get to vote directly on laws via the internet. Such a system has already been proposed and is up for vote, it's called the National Initiative for Democracy.
8 yrs ago, 11 mos ago - Tuesday 10/11/11 - 4:41:21 PM EST (GMT-5)
direct democracy is something be lobbied for out on the streets, btw
and can you really blame americans for not voting? at this point in the game it's not so different from dutifully taking your placebo every morning...
8 yrs ago, 11 mos ago - Tuesday 10/11/11 - 4:42:50 PM EST (GMT-5)
On Tuesday 10/11/11 - 4:41:21 PM Kungfullama wrote:
direct democracy is something be lobbied for out on the streets, btw and can you really blame americans for not voting? at this point in the game it's not so different from dutifully taking your placebo every morning...

Ok, fair enough. So why isn't the Occupy Wallstreet crowd calling for direct democracy? If that was one of their demands, I wouldn't be accusing them of being vague and I might be answering "yes" to this question.
8 yrs ago, 11 mos ago - Tuesday 10/11/11 - 4:43:42 PM EST (GMT-5)
On Tuesday 10/11/11 - 4:42:50 PM Raisinman wrote:
So why isn't the Occupy Wallstreet crowd calling for direct democracy?

they are?
I'm not really sure what you mean by this
I was there, I assure you, that is a thing that they are doing
8 yrs ago, 11 mos ago - Tuesday 10/11/11 - 4:43:52 PM EST (GMT-5)
And yes, I can blame Americans for not voting. They don't have to vote for the status quo, there are 3rd parties that might actually enact real change.
8 yrs ago, 11 mos ago - Tuesday 10/11/11 - 4:46:05 PM EST (GMT-5)
On Tuesday 10/11/11 - 4:43:52 PM Raisinman wrote:
And yes, I can blame Americans for not voting. They don't have to vote for the status quo, there are 3rd parties that might actually enact real change.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duverg...
8 yrs ago, 11 mos ago - Tuesday 10/11/11 - 4:46:06 PM EST (GMT-5)
I cannot but agree, representative democracy is best operative when people truly pay attention to politics, go vote, and then make their demands known to whoever they elected.

And who could be against a more direct democratic process? Not just for laws, social policy, working environment, public spending, etc etc etc

Those are all true and good, but you're putting a lot of things in the same bucket here, asking people to be consequential, as if low votes automatically stripped them of all power or credibility.

Beyond all intellectual mumbo jumbo, or social understanding of the situation, lack of clear aims, etc whatever you wanna pin on them to undermine their legitimacy, when people have nothing to lose and choose to voice out their grievances so expressively, it IS democracy, de facto, in action. Even if all those f*ckers were wrong, they're still right to go for what they want.
8 yrs ago, 11 mos ago - Tuesday 10/11/11 - 4:47:24 PM EST (GMT-5)
Well I haven't been to a rally admittedly, but I here them talk about it on NPR almost every day and they haven't said anything about pushing for direct democracy. And in the video I linked on the previous page, Naomi Klein didn't say anything about direct democracy.
8 yrs ago, 11 mos ago - Tuesday 10/11/11 - 5:01:45 PM EST (GMT-5)
Naomi Klein, lol... but let's not go there.

There is no official spokesperson for that movement yet btw, it's still very organic and diffused.

You cannot expect that many people, especially people who have been disinformed systematically for so long, to voice out their discontent in an orderly fashion. Hell probably 4 out of 5 folks occupying probably have the vaguest idea of political theories, any form of (actual) libertarian or socialist ideology has been swept under the rug for so long that they appear as the theories of a madman nowadays.
8 yrs ago, 11 mos ago - Tuesday 10/11/11 - 5:12:23 PM EST (GMT-5)
Most revolutions take place with 2 to 5% of the population actively involved, and then amongst those there are very few actually aware of the very reasons they get involved in it, and usually pretty selfless in their aim, the true activists. (Also possibly dogmatic, deluded, name it... in some cases)

The rest is just followers, folks who hop on the boat because it seems like the thing to do, and sure to those vague concepts of liberty / democracy / whatever sparked the initiative works just fine.

Imo, one very important show of discernment is not to mistake the methods employed, the way demands are formulated, etc. with the legitimacy of the grievances. The world isn't filled with Noam Chomskis and Slavoj Žižeks, it's filled with folks trying to get by.
8 yrs ago, 11 mos ago - Tuesday 10/11/11 - 5:12:41 PM EST (GMT-5)
And when those folks notice that something is awfully wrong with the world, and are willing to to something radical to point it out, you should pay attention.

Now if you think the cause is legit but the means and methods employed unfit, well F*CKING GET INVOLVED.

If you think it isn't, go stand in that street and let them know, see what happens, get a lil taste of democracy in action, power by the numbers.

This train is in motion, you can sit at the station and bitch and criticize and what not, but it's not stopping for you. Intellectual considerations are pure wind in the face of popular movements.

To say otherwise is not to understand much about democracy.

8 yrs ago, 11 mos ago - Tuesday 10/11/11 - 6:26:27 PM EST (GMT-5)
On Tuesday 10/11/11 - 4:41:21 PM Kungfullama wrote:
direct democracy is something be lobbied for out on the streets, btw and can you really blame americans for not voting? at this point in the game it's not so different from dutifully taking your placebo every morning...

Yes, every couple of years, we get to select which representative of the super-rich will work to fulfill their needs in government. That helps us a lot.


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