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French religious discrimination

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14 days ago - Monday 11/25/19 - 3:35:50 PM EST (GMT-5)
"French nun misses out on retirement home place over veil ban"

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...



14 days ago - Monday 11/25/19 - 4:16:16 PM EST (GMT-5)
Is she a sister or a nun?

If she’s a sister, the veil is not mandatory.

If she’s a nun, she shouldn’t be in a state retirement home.
14 days ago - Monday 11/25/19 - 4:20:23 PM EST (GMT-5)
I don't think it should matter if it's mandated by her church/religion or not.

What are the requirements to qualify for a state retirement home? If all citizens are supposed to enjoy that benefit, then nuns shouldn't be excepted.


14 days ago - Monday 11/25/19 - 4:23:26 PM EST (GMT-5)
That’s why they accepted her.

The question is: is she still a nun?
14 days ago - Monday 11/25/19 - 4:25:08 PM EST (GMT-5)
She would still be a nun- - it's a lifelong thing.

They only allowed her there if she gave up wearing her religious garb.
14 days ago - Monday 11/25/19 - 4:26:21 PM EST (GMT-5)
Because that’s the law.

Are you saying they should break the law to accommodate religious beliefs?
14 days ago - Monday 11/25/19 - 4:27:21 PM EST (GMT-5)
I'm saying that the law is discriminatory and is wrong (in my opinion).

13 days ago - Tuesday 11/26/19 - 11:19:32 AM EST (GMT-5)
On Monday 11/25/19 - 4:16:16 PM Abzurd wrote:
Is she a sister or a nun?

I didn’t know there was a difference
13 days ago - Tuesday 11/26/19 - 2:33:00 PM EST (GMT-5)
nuns are generally referred to as mother and outrank sisters, if i recall correctly.

i'm with CD on this one. france is pretty strange when it comes to religious freedom. it's not like 99% of french citizens (myself included) are atheists and don't want religion in public life, period.
13 days ago - Tuesday 11/26/19 - 2:42:00 PM EST (GMT-5)

Sisters made religious vows and work in communities as nurse, teachers etc.

Nuns make religious vows and live in convents.

They both are part of congregations.

One is more “public” than the other.

Btw, just to clarify, the ban on religious symbols / attire in this case is because the home is a public one. The law doesn’t apply to the private sector.

(Personally I don’t agree either, just felt like sealioning cd a bit.
But I also believe I lack context for judging the law. The French knows better what they need)
13 days ago - Tuesday 11/26/19 - 2:52:01 PM EST (GMT-5)
So I guess nuns are more like monks
13 days ago - Tuesday 11/26/19 - 2:52:32 PM EST (GMT-5)
On Tuesday 11/26/19 - 2:33:00 PM Inquizitor2 wrote:
it's not like 99% of french citizens (myself included) are atheists and don't want religion in public life, period.


Do you have French citizenship because you've actually lived and worked there and been integrated in the society? Or is this a "my grandparents were born there so I'm entitled to it" situation? Because I would say it's a bit disingenuous to lump yourself in with the French citizenry and "what they want" if you don't even participate in the society.
13 days ago - Tuesday 11/26/19 - 2:54:39 PM EST (GMT-5)
my parents weren't US citizens when i was born, so i do have dual citizenship.

my relatives are more integrated into the society since they actually live there. i'm not lumping myself into the actual society, i'm just saying that their approach to religious freedom is a bit misguided.
13 days ago - Tuesday 11/26/19 - 2:55:29 PM EST (GMT-5)
I mean either way, it's a weirdo thing to lump yourself in with "French citizens" like you did, when you've only ever lived in California lol.
13 days ago - Tuesday 11/26/19 - 2:56:52 PM EST (GMT-5)
And that sort of goes to Abz's point (which I'm now piggybacking on) - who are you to say France is "misguided" on this? It isn't your society. They're allowed to make their own laws that aren't the same as ours, if that's what they think works better for their society. And they've clearly chosen a more secular path than some other countries.
13 days ago - Tuesday 11/26/19 - 2:57:42 PM EST (GMT-5)
On Tuesday 11/26/19 - 2:52:01 PM Noldor wrote:
So I guess nuns are more like monks

Precisely.

But there is an additional category of nuns, like the Carmélites, that never actually get out of their communities.
13 days ago - Tuesday 11/26/19 - 3:00:33 PM EST (GMT-5)
They are excluding her due to her religious beliefs. If she walks around with a veil, it’s not going to harm anyone. So much for freedom of religion in France.
13 days ago - Tuesday 11/26/19 - 3:01:37 PM EST (GMT-5)
This all started 20 - 30 years ago when there was a ghettoisation in public schools based on religions.
Mostly the 3 abrahamic ones.

So the first law that was made was applying to public schools.

13 days ago - Tuesday 11/26/19 - 3:02:26 PM EST (GMT-5)
On Tuesday 11/26/19 - 3:00:33 PM Noldor wrote:
They are excluding her due to her religious beliefs. If she walks around with a veil, it’s not going to harm anyone. So much for freedom of religion in France.

Like I said, it’s about public (secular republic) vs private
13 days ago - Tuesday 11/26/19 - 3:05:19 PM EST (GMT-5)
On Tuesday 11/26/19 - 2:56:52 PM birdsong4j wrote:
And that sort of goes to Abz's point (which I'm now piggybacking on) - who are you to say France is "misguided" on this? It isn't your society. They're allowed to make their own laws that aren't the same as ours, if that's what they think works better for their society. And they've clearly chosen a more secular path than some other countries.


Certainly they are allowed to make their own laws. I think the rest of the world is entitled to have an opinion on those laws, particularly if they are viewed to be oppressive and discriminatory.

13 days ago - Tuesday 11/26/19 - 3:07:53 PM EST (GMT-5)
Leave it to conservative Americans to superimpose their own beliefs on every other society as if there aren't any differences to be taken into account, I guess.

(The law isn't discriminatory against Christians. It's applied equally to all religions.)
13 days ago - Tuesday 11/26/19 - 3:09:30 PM EST (GMT-5)
Absolutely CD, but don’t forget you are doing it from an American point of view.
English language societies have always (well, since 19th century) been very strong about personal freedom, whike French language ones tend to lean a bit more about the collective freedom.

It’s more about common history than linguistics.

Don’t know about others, I’d gladly like to hear Matthias input about this.
13 days ago - Tuesday 11/26/19 - 3:18:56 PM EST (GMT-5)
On Tuesday 11/26/19 - 3:07:53 PM birdsong4j wrote:
Leave it to conservative Americans to superimpose their own beliefs on every other society as if there aren't any differences to be taken into account, I guess. (The law isn't discriminatory against Christians. It's applied equally to all religions.)


I guess you are OK with the practice of female genital mutilation in Africa? We certainly don't want to impose our beliefs on other societies...

I never claimed that the law applied only to Christianity. I see this as the government suppressing religious expression, and normalizes an anti-religion stance.



13 days ago - Tuesday 11/26/19 - 3:21:29 PM EST (GMT-5)
I am all for secularism, but france’s version of it is f-cked and has been f-cked since the revolution
13 days ago - Tuesday 11/26/19 - 3:23:13 PM EST (GMT-5)
Ya think there might be just a TINY difference between not being given a spot in a particular living space, and permanently mutilating a child's body?

No. No, of course you can't see the difference between those things. You have absolutely no sense of scale on any issue, this one included. What a joke.

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