[link]        Yesterdays` non-binding referendum on seceding from Iraq came out with 92% in favor. Iraq declared the vote unconstitutional and the US and other Western nations oppose it as well. Who's Online | Find Members | Private Messages
Questions
Quizzes
Articles
My Journal
Forums
Quests. | Journs. | Gen. | News | Quiz | Links | TV | Music | Movies | Games | Sports | Sug. | Lit. | Jokes | Artcls. | Newb | O.S.
Iraqi Kurdish Referendum

Back to Thread List
Bottom Last Post

1 month ago - Wednesday 9/27/17 - 2:30:32 PM EST (GMT-5)
al Jazeera

Yesterdays' non-binding referendum on seceding from Iraq came out with 92% in favor. Iraq declared the vote unconstitutional and the US and other Western nations oppose it as well.
1 month ago - Wednesday 9/27/17 - 3:06:45 PM EST (GMT-5)
I'm not sure how to feel about all this. I think that popular notion is to support this because they are oppressed in Iraq, Saddam Hussein committed crimes against humanity against them, they are a separate ethnicity and they are largely portrayed as "the good Muslims" fighting ISIS, and they were denied a state 100 years ago because of Sykes-Picot but at the same time...

I feel that if the left preaches that past crimes (slavery and genocide) and current systematic injustice can be overcome and a diverse coexistence IS possible, then don't you have to also believe that elsewhere? And if you support Kurdish, or Scottish or Catalan independence then aren't you also supporting the Black Panther's Black Secession and the Nazi concept of the ethno-state, and agreeing that coexistence is not possible?
1 month ago - Wednesday 9/27/17 - 3:41:31 PM EST (GMT-5)
"US and other Western nations oppose it as well."

We really shouldn't. We apparently fought a war to bring democracy to Iraq, how about showing a bit of respect to people trying to get some?
1 month ago - Wednesday 9/27/17 - 4:40:40 PM EST (GMT-5)
the division of the Ottoman Empire was another fine mess.
1 month ago - Wednesday 9/27/17 - 5:28:58 PM EST (GMT-5)
In general I welcome secession and and the idea of the self determination.

The problem is that often their isn’t a mechanism to do so peaceably. This ends up leading to ethnic cleansing when dissent rears it’s head.

1 month ago - Wednesday 9/27/17 - 5:59:20 PM EST (GMT-5)
Also Turkey wouldn't allow unless Turkish Kurds leave for Iraq Kurdistan.
1 month ago - Wednesday 9/27/17 - 6:28:54 PM EST (GMT-5)
The Middle East in general should be allowed to draw their own borders disregarding those drawn up in the early 20th Century.

Each region should be allowed to form an autonomous local government and then join a federation of like minded regions to form a state.
1 month ago - Wednesday 9/27/17 - 11:29:03 PM EST (GMT-5)
On Wednesday 9/27/17 - 3:41:31 PM Guilty_Spark wrote:
"US and other Western nations oppose it as well." We really shouldn't. We apparently fought a war to bring democracy to Iraq, how about showing a bit of respect to people trying to get some?

Recall that Kurdish terrorists have, over the years, killed a lot of people in Turkey. It's one of the reasons Turkey was less than enthusiastic about our invasion of Iraq.
1 month ago - Thursday 9/28/17 - 1:29:04 AM EST (GMT-5)
Recall that Turkish state agents have killed even more Kurds and banned their language.

Ahmed, I think you're on the wrong track with considering inclusion as a value of the left. The goal *is* correcting systemic injustice, that doesn't necessarily mean coexisting side by side. I have two qualms about this, though. I don't trust the Kurdish Regional Government to fairly seek and do justice on behalf of all Kurdish people. Second, I am in full support of autonomy and self-determination but I don't know if more borders in the Middle East is the right answer to that. The region is probably the best example in the world of oppression through statehood. Also, practically, I don't know if it'll empower conversation around redrawing Syria's borders which I'm strongly against in the current climate.
1 month ago - Thursday 9/28/17 - 2:56:23 AM EST (GMT-5)
On Thursday 9/28/17 - 1:29:04 AM LordGolden wrote:
The goal *is* correcting systemic injustice, that doesn't necessarily mean coexisting side by side.

There's some pretty serious implications to that, though. The left has worked on a platform of equality and tolerance for 50 years, so to turn around and say coexistence is not the goal *feels* tantamount to supporting Louis Farrakhan's Blackistan or the worst Trumpeteer's "make America white again".

Any Western country with a large minority population - UK, Canada, Germany - liberals push equality and tolerance. I fully understand that wealthy first world Nations and a recovering war zone aren't the same. And I'm not accusing you of being segregationist. I'm just being honest and bouncing my thoughts around because I don't know how to feel.
1 month ago - Thursday 9/28/17 - 2:57:01 AM EST (GMT-5)
The Kurds have legitimate grievances as I've said and others have pointed out, but it ultimately feels hypocritical to essentially say whites must learn to accept minorities but brown people can draw ethnic borders.
1 month ago - Thursday 9/28/17 - 4:52:26 AM EST (GMT-5)
Using "The Left" as an entity in any argument is nonsensical.

White people drew the borders in Brown people's homelands. It's one thing being a minority Indian in the UK when you had a choice to move there or return or your country of origon. It's quite another to have a minority status imposed upen you through the intrests of more powerfull forces. The problem with a Kurdish state in Iraq is it opens up further claims from Kurds in Turkey where there are large areas with a Kurdish majority. Syria and Iran have border regons that are predominatly Kurdish. Because no one drew a border around the Kurds. These minorities were manufactured by gerrymandering after World War 1. Kurds might have come to accept their position but after nearly 100 years, the countries they had imposed on them have not accepted them as equals. By and large those countries are failed states
1 month ago - Thursday 9/28/17 - 4:56:36 AM EST (GMT-5)
It seems to me that allowing Kurds an oppertunity to govern themselves in Iraq, when other factions have rendered most of the country ungovernable is a greater ideal than some theory about what white people think is best for everybody else.
1 month ago - Thursday 9/28/17 - 6:26:09 AM EST (GMT-5)
You think I don't know all that?

African Americans didn't choose to be African Americans and there's large swaths where they are the majority, and face discrimination and persecution, but no one is talking about secession they're talking about integration.

Yes Iraq is a disaster and they'd probably do a better job governing themselves. As my workday's gone on I realized my real problem is that I don't want that to happen - if multicultural Iraq was a failure and a balkanized ethnostate is a success then doesn't that prove the klansmen and Nazis who elected the wallbuilder right? Doesn't that prove the European anti migrant parties right and disprove what I've believed about multi ethnic societies my whole life
1 month ago - Thursday 9/28/17 - 7:12:39 AM EST (GMT-5)
This is not about what you believe, it's about what some other people want.

People have a right to self determination and that has been denied to the Kurds through dividing their majority between several different countries. You can't make theoretical comparisons with African Americans and judge one right and one wrong for a multitude of reasons but for most of all because it was their choice, overwealmingly.



You need to be logged in to post a reply

New to YT? Create a Free Account ~ Have an Account? Log In

Back to Thread List
Top

 
Edit